{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":null,"startTime":0.61,"endTime":2.29,"body":"Kevin: Welcome to Innovate and React."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2.32,"endTime":6.46,"body":"I'm Kevin Hares, and today'sepisode will be about possible"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":6.46,"endTime":9.13,"body":"solutions for the hydrogen economy."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":9.61,"endTime":15.4,"body":"We need more hydrogen than we canproduce, but transporting hydrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":15.4,"endTime":16.99,"body":"as a gas is also not trivial."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":17.44,"endTime":21.31,"body":"This is where ammonia comesinto play as a hydrogen carrier."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":21.733,"endTime":25.903,"body":"And today I'm with Malte Behrens,who is a professor for inorganic"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":25.903,"endTime":30.133,"body":"solid state chemistry at theUniversity of Kiel in Germany."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":30.553,"endTime":34.963,"body":"And one of his topics are catalystsfor ammonia decomposition."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":35.653,"endTime":36.483,"body":"Welcome, Malte."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":36.643,"endTime":37.543,"body":"Thanks for joining me."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":38.051,"endTime":38.341,"body":"Malte: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":38.386,"endTime":39.406,"body":"Thanks for having me, Kevin."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":39.706,"endTime":42.766,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, I'm glad um, you'rehere and sharing your insights"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":42.766,"endTime":45.316,"body":"into this very interesting topic."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":45.316,"endTime":47.896,"body":"But let's maybe go back first a bit."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":47.986,"endTime":49.876,"body":"What brought you to Catalysis?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":50.412,"endTime":50.832,"body":"Malte: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":51.142,"endTime":56.662,"body":"So my journey to catalysis was maybe notso straightforward because, uh, in my, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":56.662,"endTime":61.846,"body":"in my studies here, which I also did hereat Kiel University, uh, catalysis was not"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":61.846,"endTime":66.706,"body":"a big, a big research topic and also maybenot the biggest topic in, in teaching."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":67.291,"endTime":70.441,"body":"And so I got my training in,in solid state, chemistry."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":70.891,"endTime":76.477,"body":"And um, yeah, I was alwaysinterested in, uh, I mean solid,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":76.477,"endTime":77.857,"body":"say chemistry in those days."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":77.857,"endTime":79.627,"body":"These are the early two thousands."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":79.627,"endTime":85.912,"body":"Were to some extent about finding newcompounds, new crystal structures, like a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":85.992,"endTime":90.727,"body":"field of applied crystal crystallography,finding new, um, uh, new materials."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":91.327,"endTime":95.077,"body":"But I was always a bit moreinterested in, properties of those"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":95.077,"endTime":96.607,"body":"compounds, of those materials."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":96.607,"endTime":99.392,"body":"And I was lucky that, uh, with,in, in the group of Wolfgang Bensch"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":99.412,"endTime":102.967,"body":"where I was working, he was alsolike taking this maybe a bit more"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":102.967,"endTime":104.737,"body":"modern view on solid state chemistry."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":104.737,"endTime":109.837,"body":"And we were dealing a lot with reactivityof solids, but, uh, not with catalysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":109.867,"endTime":111.667,"body":"This was intercalation chemistry."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":111.667,"endTime":114.557,"body":"So maybe there was arelation to battery research."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":114.962,"endTime":117.302,"body":"But it was more on avery fundamental level."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":117.302,"endTime":121.532,"body":"So we, we looked at like how magneticproperties changed when , for instance,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":121.532,"endTime":125.792,"body":"lithium ions are intercalated intotransition metal chalcogenides materials."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":125.882,"endTime":130.632,"body":"And that was all interesting, but I alwaysthought, okay I would wish to, um, to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":130.632,"endTime":135.792,"body":"work a bit more on problems that are,um, maybe a bit more on the applied side."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":135.822,"endTime":138.252,"body":"Nevertheless, looking at atfundamental aspects of those."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":139.122,"endTime":144.182,"body":"And it was, uh, like in the middle of myPhD thesis when we wanted to use x-ray"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":144.182,"endTime":148.892,"body":"absorption spectroscopy, um, which was anew tech technique in those days for me."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":148.922,"endTime":154.442,"body":"And I was going to a workshop at the FritzHaber Institute in Berlin because one of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":154.442,"endTime":158.197,"body":"the group leaders there Thorsten Resslerin the inorganic chemistry department."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":158.497,"endTime":161.647,"body":"Um, he developed a program thatwe wanted to use, and he was"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":161.647,"endTime":165.337,"body":"inviting everyone for a, um, for aworkshop on how to learn about this"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":165.337,"endTime":165.787,"body":"program"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":166.147,"endTime":169.651,"body":"Kevin: the program was for,uh, analyzing something or?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":169.671,"endTime":174.351,"body":"Malte: Yes for, for evaluatingthose, uh, x-ray absorption spectra."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":174.401,"endTime":177.801,"body":"This was the winXAS uh, uh, programpackage, which we used in those days."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":178.481,"endTime":181.701,"body":"And, uh, Thorsten Ressler madethis workshop at the Fritz Haber"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":181.721,"endTime":184.961,"body":"Institute where he was employed inthose days, and that's of course"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":184.961,"endTime":186.671,"body":"the hotspot of Catalysis Science."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":187.091,"endTime":191.171,"body":"And it was like a mixture of, um,well, the fascination of catalysis"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":191.171,"endTime":194.851,"body":"science and most of the examples thatThorsten was teaching in those, in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":194.851,"endTime":196.591,"body":"those workshops were from catalysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":197.011,"endTime":201.121,"body":"But also it is a very unique place,I believe, um, with this, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":201.151,"endTime":205.621,"body":"yeah, going back to Fritz Haber,uh, himself and, in this very nice"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":205.921,"endTime":207.941,"body":"surrounding, uh, in, in Berlin Dahlem."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":208.261,"endTime":211.951,"body":"So I wa I was really fascinated bythat and somehow I, I thought, okay,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":211.951,"endTime":215.531,"body":"well this is, this is probably a goodplace to do a postdoc and to go there"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":215.531,"endTime":217.301,"body":"as a next step of, of my career."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":217.826,"endTime":219.326,"body":"And, uh, yeah, that's what I did."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":219.326,"endTime":222.686,"body":"So that was also, um, one reason,to go into, into heterogeneous"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":223.096,"endTime":226.366,"body":"catalysis and, and yeah, that thenI joined the department of, uh, of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":226.366,"endTime":229.826,"body":"Robert Schl\u00f6gl who was also veryinspiring in those days as a postdoc."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":230.881,"endTime":235.711,"body":"Um, and, uh, yeah, this is where,how I came to to catalysis with a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":235.737,"endTime":237.421,"body":"background of solid state chemistry."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":237.421,"endTime":242.461,"body":"Then dealing with the synthesis andwith also analytical problems of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":242.461,"endTime":244.291,"body":"those nano structured materials."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":244.411,"endTime":246.301,"body":"Kevin: now you are combining both,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":246.652,"endTime":248.692,"body":"Malte: Yes, this is, thisis what we're trying to do."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":249.082,"endTime":252.892,"body":"To well take a materials focusedperspective, I would say."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":252.892,"endTime":254.512,"body":"So we are not reaction engineers."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":254.927,"endTime":259.792,"body":"Uh, uh, we are not working on theoptimization of processes, but we want"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":259.882,"endTime":266.872,"body":"to develop new and also optimize and makebetter and understand the challenges and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":266.872,"endTime":271.342,"body":"the, the, the limitations of catalystsand also of, of applied catalysts."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":271.512,"endTime":273.492,"body":"Yeah, we are doing synthesis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":273.822,"endTime":280.372,"body":"Um, the idea is to synthesize not a singlematerial, but a series of samples in order"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":280.822,"endTime":286.157,"body":"to be able to look at trends, structure,activity, correlations, composition"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":286.277,"endTime":288.317,"body":"selectivity, correlations, whatever."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":288.457,"endTime":290.692,"body":"Any of those correlationis interesting for us."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":291.037,"endTime":294.787,"body":"And we have, um, in a first approximation,an empirical approach to that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":294.787,"endTime":299.047,"body":"So, um, we want to start with amaterial that, that has, well, that,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":299.077,"endTime":300.667,"body":"that is high performing already."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":300.667,"endTime":302.017,"body":"So that has some relevance."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":302.377,"endTime":307.797,"body":"Uh, and then we, we, we want to modify itin a most controlled manner possible and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":307.797,"endTime":313.137,"body":"see what effect this modification had onthe kinetic properties of that material."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":313.137,"endTime":315.627,"body":"And from that, we hope toget some understanding."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":315.627,"endTime":318.717,"body":"And then with that trend,we get a working hypothesis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":319.707,"endTime":323.577,"body":"It is typically necessary then to teamup with other collaboration partners more"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":323.577,"endTime":327.807,"body":"from model catalysis, or particularlyalso from theory in order to, well"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":327.867,"endTime":330.057,"body":"test and validate such hypotheses."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":330.277,"endTime":335.227,"body":"I think that those correlations are avery inspiring source of these hypotheses,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":335.512,"endTime":340.177,"body":"uh, uh, to, to better understand, uh,how a catalyst is doing what it does."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":340.642,"endTime":346.407,"body":"Kevin: Basically also doing the reactionoptimization where you would usually"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":346.407,"endTime":351.447,"body":"look at different parameters and youare looking at the composition of the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":351.567,"endTime":357.202,"body":"solid material and then change someparameters of the material and then"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":357.262,"endTime":362.577,"body":"see what this change has an influenceon the reaction you're looking at."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":363.252,"endTime":363.822,"body":"Malte: Exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":364.002,"endTime":364.512,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":364.702,"endTime":368.522,"body":"What is important also to lookat maybe less performing samples."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":368.522,"endTime":370.802,"body":"So it's not a pureoptimization research, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":370.802,"endTime":373.562,"body":"But we want to get a, acertain parameter space."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":374.162,"endTime":379.262,"body":"Uh, that we, we then are confident at, atsome point in time that we can control,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":379.382,"endTime":381.752,"body":"say the activity with that parameter."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":382.202,"endTime":386.162,"body":"And, uh, of course, like more or lesstrivial parameter would be the specific"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":386.162,"endTime":388.292,"body":"surface area of the active metal."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":388.292,"endTime":392.612,"body":"If we talk about metal catalyst, it'salways good to have as much, uh, surface"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":392.612,"endTime":395.192,"body":"area, uh, available, exposed as possible."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":395.642,"endTime":399.572,"body":"That would be one aspect, but alsothere are more involved things like,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":400.202,"endTime":404.612,"body":"catalyst promotion, for instance,adding a little bit of additives"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":404.612,"endTime":409.022,"body":"in, in exactly the right amount andexactly the right place in the sample."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":409.272,"endTime":412.212,"body":"That, yeah, that determines the,the final kinetic properties of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":412.212,"endTime":413.562,"body":"the material to a large extent."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":413.562,"endTime":418.002,"body":"And that is, uh, well, less easy tounderstand than just saying, well, we need"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":418.002,"endTime":421.812,"body":"more metal surface area in order to getmore, more active sites, which also is"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":421.812,"endTime":423.192,"body":"a, is a very important thing, of course."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":423.192,"endTime":429.072,"body":"Kevin: And also find trends instead oftrial and error for each and every sample,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":429.702,"endTime":431.442,"body":"I think is an interesting approach."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":431.917,"endTime":434.682,"body":"Malte: This is also where wejust started to dive into that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":434.682,"endTime":438.727,"body":"Data science approaches are,are very powerful or have"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":438.727,"endTime":440.047,"body":"become very powerful I believe."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":440.732,"endTime":446.028,"body":"Um, because, uh, yeah, as I said, forthose trends, also samples that are maybe"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":446.058,"endTime":450.048,"body":"on the first sight, not so interestingbecause they are not performing better,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":450.318,"endTime":453.648,"body":"they still can be very valuable forunderstanding and describing the trend"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":453.678,"endTime":455.238,"body":"that is so why are they not better?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":455.268,"endTime":458.433,"body":"And that, that information canalways also lead to new insight."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":458.483,"endTime":460.323,"body":"That's something that is, uh, I think, uh."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":460.598,"endTime":464.898,"body":"Uh, yeah, this, this approach will,in the near future probably, uh, be"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":464.928,"endTime":470.328,"body":"more and more governed by these datascience, uh, approaches and, and the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":470.328,"endTime":471.828,"body":"tools that we now have available."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":471.873,"endTime":475.803,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, for that you alwaysneed a larger data set than just a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":475.818,"endTime":476.868,"body":"Malte: Yes, exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":477.183,"endTime":481.503,"body":"Kevin: And, uh, I think that's, uh,very interesting because all this"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":481.963,"endTime":486.913,"body":"high throughput catalysis research,which basically started with, uh."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":487.363,"endTime":489.913,"body":"The invention of the Haber-Bosch process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":490.303,"endTime":495.043,"body":"I had also a previous episode about the,uh, history of the Haber-Bosch process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":495.043,"endTime":500.602,"body":"And there they tested a extremelylarge amount of catalysts and then"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":500.902,"endTime":506.541,"body":"eventually, uh, found the catalystthat is still mostly used today,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":506.721,"endTime":508.551,"body":"so almost a hundred years ago."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":508.551,"endTime":512.811,"body":"But they did such great workthat it's still applicable."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":513.411,"endTime":513.891,"body":"Um."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":514.851,"endTime":515.031,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":515.031,"endTime":517.491,"body":"And you have also been atthe Fritz Haber Institute."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":517.921,"endTime":518.281,"body":"Malte: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":518.341,"endTime":518.551,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":518.551,"endTime":521.781,"body":"I mean the, the ammonia story, ofcourse is very well present, in the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":521.781,"endTime":524.001,"body":"history of the, of the institute."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":524.061,"endTime":527.781,"body":"Although I think that the Haber didhis major experiments in his time"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":527.781,"endTime":531.911,"body":"in Karlsruhe before he came, beforehe came to Berlin, um, nevertheless,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":531.911,"endTime":533.441,"body":"and there was like, uh, also."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":533.876,"endTime":538.866,"body":"Um, coming more from a maybe remoteuniversity in Germany to Berlin."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":539.466,"endTime":541.146,"body":"It was my second year as a postdoc there."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":541.146,"endTime":546.756,"body":"In 2007, it was when Gerherd Ertl gotthe Nobel Prize and that was, uh, also"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":546.756,"endTime":551.556,"body":"of course for his work on the, um,fundamental work on the understanding of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":551.556,"endTime":553.656,"body":"the mechanism of the Haber Bosch process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":553.986,"endTime":557.906,"body":"So that was of course for me as a youngscientist, uh, very, very exciting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":557.906,"endTime":558.356,"body":"Anyway."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":558.746,"endTime":562.836,"body":"Uh, but also very interestingto see that the direct line from"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":562.836,"endTime":564.881,"body":"Fritz Haber in early 20th century."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":565.581,"endTime":567.621,"body":"And then, uh, decades."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":567.621,"endTime":570.861,"body":"I mean, this was almost 100 yearsago, although the, the work from Ertl"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":570.876,"endTime":573.561,"body":"was, was, was a bit earlier than,than when he received the price."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":573.961,"endTime":577.901,"body":"But decades later, um, there wasthe knowledge, uh, about the,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":577.901,"endTime":580.811,"body":"about the reaction mechanism,and it is exactly what you say."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":581.021,"endTime":583.521,"body":"There was this tremendous effort of, uh."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":583.866,"endTime":588.726,"body":"Yeah, an early version of parallelized orhigh throughput, uh, materials testing by"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":588.726,"endTime":590.956,"body":"Alwin Mittasch in the early 20th century."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":591.316,"endTime":594.496,"body":"And, uh, the result is, issuper impressive, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":594.496,"endTime":598.091,"body":"This, this catalyst is still, uh,as you already said with only little"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":598.091,"endTime":600.851,"body":"modification in operation nowadays."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":601.031,"endTime":606.701,"body":"And then it took in another, I don't know,50 years or so to really understand, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":606.701,"endTime":608.911,"body":"all details of the reaction mechanism."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":608.911,"endTime":614.531,"body":"And yeah, it shows us that, uh, of course,fundamental understanding is important"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":614.531,"endTime":616.631,"body":"and is is, is the goal and is needed."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":617.741,"endTime":618.671,"body":"But on the other hand."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":619.436,"endTime":624.416,"body":"It when, whenever this knowledge wasavailable, it didn't directly create"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":624.416,"endTime":626.156,"body":"a new breakthrough of a new catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":626.156,"endTime":626.426,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":626.486,"endTime":627.626,"body":"It was not like, okay, wow."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":627.626,"endTime":631.136,"body":"Now we understand and, and, and we,uh, we, we know what to do in order"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":631.136,"endTime":632.486,"body":"to further improve the catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":632.486,"endTime":637.346,"body":"So the old work of the AlvinMitasch lab is, uh, still Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":637.346,"endTime":638.696,"body":"Stands, stands for itself."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":639.356,"endTime":644.516,"body":"Kevin: And now we can also use thisknowledge about the mechanism of the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":645.086,"endTime":653.456,"body":"ammonia production and to some extent gainknowledge for the reverse reaction for the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":653.786,"endTime":660.866,"body":"ammonia decomposition, which we, um, yeah,also need nowadays as a new phenomenon."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":661.406,"endTime":661.826,"body":"But, um."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":662.711,"endTime":667.151,"body":"Maybe for those listeners who arenot familiar with this problem,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":667.451,"endTime":672.791,"body":"why, uh, is it so interesting touse ammonia as a hydrogen carrier?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":673.193,"endTime":673.643,"body":"Malte: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":673.703,"endTime":674.003,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":674.063,"endTime":675.628,"body":"I think there, thereare two major aspects."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":676.538,"endTime":678.968,"body":"The one is, it is carbon free."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":679.328,"endTime":684.008,"body":"So, uh, there is no coupledproduct of CO2 anywhere."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":684.078,"endTime":687.858,"body":"When you release hydrogen from,from ammonia, we need to talk"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":687.858,"endTime":691.098,"body":"about the carbon footprint of thesynthesis of ammonia, of course."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":691.098,"endTime":696.628,"body":"But, for the hydrogen release itself,um, there is, uh ideally no other"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":696.678,"endTime":699.558,"body":"molecules involved than hydrogen,the target and the completely"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":699.558,"endTime":701.808,"body":"harmless, uh, dinitrogen molecule."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":702.318,"endTime":704.718,"body":"That will be, um, that will be one aspect."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":705.078,"endTime":709.428,"body":"And, uh, the other aspects I believethat is important is that, um, the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":709.578,"endTime":714.048,"body":"transportation and distributionof ammonia is so much more"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":714.048,"endTime":716.328,"body":"facile compared to pure hydrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":716.568,"endTime":721.158,"body":"So, uh, of course any conversion,any chemical conversion, um, is."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":721.468,"endTime":727.448,"body":"Lowering the overall efficiency of theenergy that is, um, that is used, um,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":727.508,"endTime":729.218,"body":"or that, that is put in those molecules."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":729.758,"endTime":735.043,"body":"Uh, but, uh, I think here it really canbe justified by the fact that you need"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":735.133,"endTime":741.013,"body":"only eight atmospheres in order to liquefyammonia and, uh, in a liquid state it can"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":741.013,"endTime":746.003,"body":"be transported, with existing technologyand is it, is transported already, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":746.003,"endTime":751.523,"body":"It is, uh, it is a base chemical for,for fertilizers that is globally, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":751.553,"endTime":753.653,"body":"shipped around the world, without problem."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":753.653,"endTime":758.313,"body":"We have that, uh, technologyunder control, which is not yet"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":758.313,"endTime":762.423,"body":"the case for, for pure hydrogenbecause of its higher volatility."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":762.803,"endTime":765.563,"body":"And, uh, maybe also thedangers involved with the low"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":765.563,"endTime":766.468,"body":"temperatures, the high pressures."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":767.123,"endTime":770.873,"body":"And that is needed in order to, totame hydrogen in a way that it can"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":770.873,"endTime":773.483,"body":"be handled and, and, and transported."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":773.783,"endTime":778.55,"body":"I think tho those are probably the,two most important aspects on why"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":778.67,"endTime":784.16,"body":"ammonia may not only be the basisfor, for, for artificial fertilizers,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":784.43,"endTime":788.75,"body":"but also for at least some partof the, of the energy sector."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":788.915,"endTime":794.95,"body":"Kevin: And also, uh, interesting isthat low volumetric energy density"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":794.95,"endTime":801.48,"body":"of, uh, hydrogen that, in the tank ofammonia, you can actually transport"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":801.48,"endTime":805.32,"body":"more hydrogen than in the same tankif you would just have hydrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":805.32,"endTime":805.62,"body":"in it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":806.16,"endTime":811.65,"body":"So that's also a big advantage whenyou want to cover large distances"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":811.68,"endTime":815.88,"body":"for smaller distances, like,uh, pipelines are the way to go."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":815.88,"endTime":820.86,"body":"But for example, if you want toimport hydrogen from Brazil or."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":821.205,"endTime":826.755,"body":"Australia or Saudi Arabia, then thesedistances are too long for pipelines."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":826.755,"endTime":828.975,"body":"And then we need hydrogen carriers."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":830.175,"endTime":830.505,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":830.505,"endTime":832.071,"body":"And to use uh, ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":832.071,"endTime":836.331,"body":"As a hydrogen carrier, we not onlyneed to synthesize this, we also need"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":836.331,"endTime":838.341,"body":"to get the hydrogen back from it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":839.151,"endTime":844.971,"body":"Um, it's a technology that alot of, uh, bigger companies say"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":845.031,"endTime":846.861,"body":"they could do it very quickly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":847.836,"endTime":853.016,"body":"But there are, so far nolarge scale plants, available."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":853.376,"endTime":855.566,"body":"So what are the challenges in the ammonia?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":855.896,"endTime":859.406,"body":"Um, cracking or ammonia de composition."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":859.682,"endTime":860.012,"body":"Malte: Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":860.242,"endTime":860.542,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":860.542,"endTime":862.672,"body":"In fact, that's another advantage, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":862.702,"endTime":868.762,"body":"I, I would also agree that the ammoniacracking or decomposition technology"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":868.822,"endTime":871.372,"body":"is, uh, is available already."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":872.002,"endTime":876.262,"body":"As with any technology, of course, you,you want to, and you need to design it in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":876.262,"endTime":878.512,"body":"a way that it is most efficient, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":878.542,"endTime":881.482,"body":"To get the, the most revenueout of it, and to be most, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":881.482,"endTime":883.372,"body":"energy efficient, uh, in the end."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":883.762,"endTime":888.315,"body":"Uh, and, that also will, uh, will ofcourse determine the, to some extent, the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":888.315,"endTime":890.2,"body":"price of the hydrogen, uh, in the end."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":890.53,"endTime":894.289,"body":"So, um, it, it's still, of course,needed to further improve and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":894.289,"endTime":896.029,"body":"to research this, this project."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":896.449,"endTime":899.659,"body":"And of course, as I said in the,in the beginning, we are doing this"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":899.659,"endTime":902.799,"body":"from the perspective of the catalystto find the best possible catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":903.469,"endTime":909.019,"body":"Um, but, uh, I, I would agree it'sprobably not a major showstopper"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":909.019,"endTime":912.699,"body":"to say, well, mankind is notable to, to decompose ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":912.699,"endTime":914.169,"body":"This should be possible."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":914.229,"endTime":917.169,"body":"But there is no, so far, asyou correctly said, there is no"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":917.169,"endTime":920.799,"body":"industrial process because alsothere was no industrial need, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":920.799,"endTime":924.189,"body":"The, the, the utilization of ammoniawas for fertilizers, so you wanted to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":924.189,"endTime":926.529,"body":"synthesize it and not to decompose it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":926.904,"endTime":930.054,"body":"And, although it would bepossible and there probably also"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":930.054,"endTime":931.794,"body":"would be catalysts available."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":932.094,"endTime":935.364,"body":"Um, there was, uh, only,only little or only niche"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":935.414,"endTime":938.504,"body":"application of that as a process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":938.564,"endTime":943.964,"body":"Uh, um, I, I know there are some companiesthat if you want to operate fuel cells"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":943.964,"endTime":949.649,"body":"in very remote locations, you can also,um, have an ammonia tank there and do the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":949.649,"endTime":954.599,"body":"ammonia decomposition on site in order to,to fuel the fuel cell, uh, with hydrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":954.779,"endTime":955.379,"body":"But it's not."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":955.679,"endTime":959.999,"body":"Um, and, and like that, thatwould be a, a miniaturized version"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":959.999,"endTime":961.079,"body":"of what we are talking about."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":961.289,"endTime":965.129,"body":"But is, is not the large scale, um,process that, uh, is envisioned,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":965.129,"endTime":967.559,"body":"uh, in terms of using, um."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":968.234,"endTime":973.584,"body":"Ammonia, possibly as an import vector forenergy into Germany, for instance, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":973.584,"endTime":977.874,"body":"Then those, uh, those largerplans would be needed at sites"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":977.874,"endTime":981.664,"body":"where ammonia harbor sites, forinstance, where ammonia is imported."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":982.084,"endTime":987.054,"body":"Uh, and then, uh, we can think abouta distribution nets for the hydrogen,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":987.474,"endTime":989.399,"body":"um, uh, from, from, from those places."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":990.099,"endTime":993.789,"body":"But the ammonia decompositionprocess itself, I would say is,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":993.849,"endTime":996.339,"body":"um, is, is possible, is known."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":996.369,"endTime":997.689,"body":"It was studied a lot."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":997.749,"endTime":1003.929,"body":"Mostly also because, uh, the whole fieldof model catalysis that is typically"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1003.929,"endTime":1006.839,"body":"not, um, is not easy to implement."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1006.839,"endTime":1010.799,"body":"The, the, the, the high pressures thatyou need for ammonia synthesis, they"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1010.829,"endTime":1012.449,"body":"contributed a lot also to ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1013.064,"endTime":1018.524,"body":"Um, to, to fundamental mechanistic work,but mostly also by looking at the former"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1018.524,"endTime":1022.564,"body":"reverse back reaction, the reversereaction, um, because the conditions"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1022.564,"endTime":1026.784,"body":"were just not, not right in order toconduct ammonia, ammonia synthesis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1026.784,"endTime":1030.789,"body":"So it's, yeah it's possible we have acatalyst, but we, we may need better ones."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1030.864,"endTime":1035.254,"body":"Kevin: So they looked at the reversereaction, because they could not,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1035.344,"endTime":1039.064,"body":"uh, perform the high pressure forthe ammonia synthesis, but since"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1039.064,"endTime":1043.744,"body":"it's a equilibrium reaction, theylooked at the reverse reaction."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1043.779,"endTime":1044.199,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1045.214,"endTime":1048.424,"body":"Malte: This is what, what happens, likewhat happened in the, in the second"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1048.424,"endTime":1050.554,"body":"half of the 20th century, for instance."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1050.644,"endTime":1054.329,"body":"Um, where, where surface sciencestudies, um, uh, contributed"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1054.449,"endTime":1055.714,"body":"a lot to the understanding."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1056.089,"endTime":1059.689,"body":"And that is based on what iscalled the concept of microscopic"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1059.689,"endTime":1064.339,"body":"reversibility, saying that theelementary steps of the forward and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1064.389,"endTime":1067.779,"body":"the background reactions should bethe same just in a, in another order."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1068.679,"endTime":1074.029,"body":"Um, well in, in the reverse order andmany of, of those elementary steps,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1074.089,"endTime":1079.459,"body":"uh, have been researched also by notfeeding nitrogen and hydrogen into"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1079.459,"endTime":1083.539,"body":"whatever reaction chamber, but byfeeding ammonia and then looking at the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1083.539,"endTime":1087.379,"body":"intermediates that, that you have atthe surface, you just approach those"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1087.379,"endTime":1088.849,"body":"intermediates from the other side."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1089.239,"endTime":1092.959,"body":"Uh, and, uh, that is, um, and,and then they are, you, you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1092.959,"endTime":1094.219,"body":"get them at a higher coverage."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1094.669,"endTime":1099.739,"body":"Compared to if you try to, uh, synthesizethose from hydrogen and nitrogen,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1100.069,"endTime":1103.609,"body":"but at maybe too low temperaturesand or for sure too low pressures."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1104.254,"endTime":1105.064,"body":"Kevin: Oh, interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1105.544,"endTime":1109.624,"body":"So why can't we not just use theIron Catalyst and the Haber Bosch"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1109.624,"endTime":1111.964,"body":"process to use it for decomposition?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1112.129,"endTime":1114.289,"body":"Malte: The, that, that's a good question."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1114.349,"endTime":1118.579,"body":"And, and I, I would say first of all, it,it could be used, it, it, it is active"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1118.639,"endTime":1120.769,"body":"but is not a, is not the best catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1121.309,"endTime":1125.929,"body":"And, uh, this is, yeah, this is moreor less a, a breakdown of that concept"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1125.929,"endTime":1132.019,"body":"of microscopic reversibility, uh,which, um, is, uh, in principle only."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1132.379,"endTime":1136.579,"body":"Very true if you look at forwardand backward reactions at exactly"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1136.579,"endTime":1138.499,"body":"the same reaction conditions."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1139.129,"endTime":1144.559,"body":"But if you do ammonia synthesis at, uh,I don't know, 200 bar, and you look at"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1144.619,"endTime":1149.599,"body":"ammonia decomposition at one bar, thenuh, that has an effect on the chemical"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1149.599,"endTime":1151.969,"body":"potentials in the reactor, obviously."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1152.509,"endTime":1156.709,"body":"And, uh, those also wouldaffect the catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1157.594,"endTime":1161.254,"body":"And that's, that, that's amanifestation of catalysts being,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1161.314,"endTime":1163.894,"body":"uh, dynamic to some extent."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1163.894,"endTime":1168.119,"body":"So they develop their activestructure often only in, in, in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1168.124,"endTime":1169.864,"body":"contact with the reactive media."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1170.194,"endTime":1172.684,"body":"Um, and, uh, if that is ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1173.234,"endTime":1176.444,"body":"In ammonia decomposition, there is ahigh partial pressure of ammonia because"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1176.474,"endTime":1180.104,"body":"that's my feed, at least in the, inthe, the early part of the catalyst bed."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1180.104,"endTime":1184.874,"body":"If you, if you think about, uh, flowreactors and that, uh, will easily"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1184.874,"endTime":1190.185,"body":"lead to nitridation of metals witha very strong binding to nitrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1190.32,"endTime":1194.05,"body":"Kevin: So forming metal, nitrogenbonds, and then the nitrogen is fixed."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1194.115,"endTime":1195.255,"body":"Malte: Exactly, exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1195.255,"endTime":1195.435,"body":"Me."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1195.495,"endTime":1195.825,"body":"Metal."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1195.885,"endTime":1199.755,"body":"Metal nitrades iron nitrade inthis case is, is formed in at,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1199.755,"endTime":1203.535,"body":"at high ammonia, partial pressurein ammonia, uh, decomposition."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1203.985,"endTime":1208.755,"body":"If you use the very same catalystfor the equilibrium limited ammonia"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1208.755,"endTime":1212.805,"body":"synthesis reaction, you will notreach high ammonia partial pressure."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1212.835,"endTime":1213.135,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1213.135,"endTime":1213.985,"body":"The limitation is at."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1214.56,"endTime":1219.45,"body":"Below 20%, may, maybe around 20%,and you will not get more than"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1219.45,"endTime":1222.51,"body":"that at, at the conditions wheretypical ammonia acids plant is run."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1223.05,"endTime":1226.98,"body":"Uh, and um, that, and that partialpressure is typically not enough to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1226.99,"endTime":1229.11,"body":"nitride the Haber Bosch catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1229.56,"endTime":1233.72,"body":"So the same catalyst is, uh,forms an iron nitride in ammonia"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1233.94,"endTime":1238.05,"body":"decomposition and is iron metal inammonia synthesis because of the, the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1238.05,"endTime":1241.18,"body":"difference in the partial pressureof the, of the feed that you have."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1241.755,"endTime":1243.345,"body":"Or of, of the ammonia in particular."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1243.835,"endTime":1249.063,"body":"Now what we also looked at also with the,with the help of a theory, uh, DFT, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1249.068,"endTime":1254.218,"body":"uh, partner, um, group at, at, at KIT,the group of, uh, of Felix Stutt, is that,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1254.308,"endTime":1260.158,"body":"um, if you now consider the, the reactionmechanism of ammonia decomposition."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1261.073,"endTime":1264.293,"body":"In what we call the, like a LangmuirHinshelwood mechanism, you absorb"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1264.313,"endTime":1267.583,"body":"the, the reactions, they react andthen absorb state at the surface and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1267.583,"endTime":1269.293,"body":"you desorb the, the products again."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1269.863,"endTime":1273.463,"body":"Um, and if you compare now an ironmetal surface and an iron nitride"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1273.463,"endTime":1276.973,"body":"surface, you will find out thatthe iron nitride is less active."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1277.169,"endTime":1279.216,"body":"Kevin: Because the metalsites are blocked or?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1279.841,"endTime":1281.821,"body":"Malte: Well, the metalsites are still there."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1281.821,"endTime":1283.471,"body":"It's, it's still, it's still active."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1283.471,"endTime":1286.831,"body":"You still can also inmetal and iron nitride."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1287.076,"endTime":1289.536,"body":"Would expose iron atoms at the surface."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1290.106,"endTime":1295.266,"body":"But, uh, the, I, I think in a, insimple terms, you can think of the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1295.266,"endTime":1298.956,"body":"iron is already surrounded to someextent by nitrogen in its bulk."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1299.406,"endTime":1304.206,"body":"So it's maybe less prone to absorbnitrogen from, from the atmosphere."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1304.206,"endTime":1308.346,"body":"It's already, say iron is already ina happier state than if there was,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1308.346,"endTime":1309.786,"body":"if there was less nitrogen around it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1310.461,"endTime":1315.051,"body":"And, uh, that, uh, that that lackof, of, of metal nitrogen binding"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1315.111,"endTime":1319.611,"body":"of a nitride compared to metal isdetrimental for the catalytic turnover."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1319.611,"endTime":1323.331,"body":"So we get lower rates,uh, on, on iron nitride."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1323.451,"endTime":1327.981,"body":"And, there was also one, one startingpoint for, for, for a research that we"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1327.981,"endTime":1333.891,"body":"did recently that was then looking ata way to prevent nitridation of iron."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1334.581,"endTime":1337.551,"body":"Um, uh, by changingsomething in the catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1338.061,"endTime":1342.261,"body":"And, um, yeah, it, it turned outthat, for instance, alloying iron"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1342.261,"endTime":1347.001,"body":"with a, with another metal that isnot a typical nitride forming metal."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1347.001,"endTime":1352.311,"body":"And we looked at cobalt in particular,um, that this indeed helps to prevent"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1352.371,"endTime":1354.741,"body":"the bulk nitridation of the iron."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1355.011,"endTime":1358.041,"body":"So the surface iron is then surroundedby cobalt and not by nitrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1358.791,"endTime":1363.231,"body":"Cobalt itself is also not a good, um,not the ideal catalyst for ammonia"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1363.231,"endTime":1368.451,"body":"decomposition, but those, uh, thoseiron catalysts that are then, uh, they"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1368.451,"endTime":1372.321,"body":"can withstand the nitradation becausethey have already their bonding partners"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1372.321,"endTime":1375.681,"body":"in the cobalt, uh, cobalt itself isnot nitraded and that makes those"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1375.681,"endTime":1381.171,"body":"iron atom is active or highly activein ammonia, in ammonia decomposition."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1381.621,"endTime":1386.311,"body":"Kevin: So a combination of, uh,both properties so that the iron"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1386.581,"endTime":1388.861,"body":"is, uh, good at the direction, but."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1389.731,"endTime":1393.606,"body":"Likes to take up thenitrogen as and be nitrated."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1394.201,"endTime":1397.981,"body":"And the Cobalt is not asgood in the reaction, but it"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1397.981,"endTime":1400.151,"body":"doesn't form the nitrides."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1400.171,"endTime":1404.845,"body":"And then in combination you get ahigher activity because, uh, there"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1404.845,"endTime":1408.325,"body":"are no nitrides formed, but stillthe iron can perform The reaction."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1409.6,"endTime":1410.17,"body":"Malte: Exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1410.32,"endTime":1410.83,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1411.04,"endTime":1415.22,"body":"And this is also, I mean, this was, weconfirmed recently in a, in a cooperation"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1415.24,"endTime":1419.51,"body":"with another theory group that reallylooked at the kinetic barrier of the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1419.51,"endTime":1424.09,"body":"nitrogen at the surface to go subsurfaceto go into the bulk and form a nitride."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1424.45,"endTime":1429,"body":"And that was limited to a large extentby the presence of cobalt in the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1429,"endTime":1433.44,"body":"catalyst, um, which makes the, well thenitrogen coverage at the surface higher."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1433.44,"endTime":1437.45,"body":"It, it does not go, uh, it goessubsurface, but it can react and it"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1437.45,"endTime":1444.26,"body":"can form, uh, it can form, uh, nitrogenbecause the recombinative desorption"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1444.29,"endTime":1447.92,"body":"of the dinitrogen is in very manycases, the rate determining extent."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1448.31,"endTime":1451.94,"body":"So, um, we, we are interested in thehydrogen, but we need to learn how to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1451.94,"endTime":1457.01,"body":"form nitrogen on those surfaces becausemaking hydrogen is easy, but more or"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1457.01,"endTime":1461.17,"body":"less, but it's coupled to that, to theformation of the nitrogen-nitrogen triple"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1461.17,"endTime":1463.27,"body":"bond and the desorption of that molecule."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1463.27,"endTime":1465.23,"body":"And that is a challengein, in, in this type of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1465.53,"endTime":1466.07,"body":"Kevin: Interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1466.07,"endTime":1470.39,"body":"I thought that the formationof nitrogen is always favored"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1471.02,"endTime":1472.16,"body":"'cause of its triple bond."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1473.202,"endTime":1476.302,"body":"Malte: Yeah, so, so, well, it'sthermodynamically It's, it's"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1476.302,"endTime":1477.862,"body":"an endothermic reaction, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1477.862,"endTime":1480.502,"body":"So, uh, you need hightemperatures, uh, to do it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1480.982,"endTime":1487.382,"body":"And then it is kinetically, um,uh, well difficult to, to get"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1487.382,"endTime":1490.987,"body":"the two nitrogen atoms in thecorrect positions on the surface."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1491.732,"endTime":1494.342,"body":"In order to form, uh, to form that bond."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1494.342,"endTime":1499.052,"body":"And that is, that one could sayagain, is, you can look at it with"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1499.052,"endTime":1502.832,"body":"this already mentioned concept ofmicroscopic reversibility, because"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1502.832,"endTime":1506.882,"body":"that is of course the very prominentchallenge in, uh, ammonia synthesis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1506.882,"endTime":1511.142,"body":"You want to split it, but in factthe energy barrier on the way back or"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1511.142,"endTime":1513.122,"body":"forth is not so, is not so different."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1513.122,"endTime":1515.492,"body":"So it's also a problem in the,if, if you go the other way"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1515.492,"endTime":1519.397,"body":"around because you also need to goover a similar transition state."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1519.787,"endTime":1523.617,"body":"Uh, and, uh, that makes it also achallenge in ammonia decomposition"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1523.707,"endTime":1525.297,"body":"to form those nitrogen molecules."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1525.567,"endTime":1529.407,"body":"The other challenge would be the,the de hydrogenation of the ammonia"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1529.407,"endTime":1534.837,"body":"molecule, which is like the, the earlybarrier that needs to be considered."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1534.927,"endTime":1535.917,"body":"And then the late barrier."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1535.917,"endTime":1538.187,"body":"And the mechanism would bethe nitrogen recombination."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1538.828,"endTime":1542.592,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, those barriers areimportant and to have the most"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1542.592,"endTime":1549.252,"body":"efficient round trip, basically fromhydrogen to ammonia to hydrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1549.732,"endTime":1552.492,"body":"We want those barrier to be the smallest."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1553.699,"endTime":1556.666,"body":"And therefore the best catalyst available."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1556.956,"endTime":1564.488,"body":"Now, we talked about iron and cobalt,but there are also other metals And, um,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1565.118,"endTime":1569.725,"body":"yeah, one metal, which is also very goodat this reaction is ruthenium, right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1569.935,"endTime":1574.705,"body":"And, um, there it is, uh, veryprone to react with nitrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1575.185,"endTime":1575.665,"body":"Malte: Yes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1575.665,"endTime":1580.165,"body":"So, so it's, well, it is notabout, it is not about to be, uh."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1580.735,"endTime":1583.525,"body":"To, to, to form thestrongest bond to nitrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1583.975,"endTime":1589.245,"body":"But in catalysis, we have this, uh, thisfamous Sabatier principle, which says"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1589.245,"endTime":1594.375,"body":"that, uh, well you need an intermediateinteraction of the surface or of the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1594.375,"endTime":1596.37,"body":"surface atoms to the, to the intermediate."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1597.135,"endTime":1601.995,"body":"Because if it's, if it's too strong,let's say, then the, the, the following"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1601.995,"endTime":1603.795,"body":"steps will become rate determining."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1604.065,"endTime":1606.885,"body":"And if it's too weak, then theformation step of that intermediate"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1606.885,"endTime":1608.055,"body":"would become rate determining."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1608.505,"endTime":1614.355,"body":"And this is the the famous, uh, volcanocurve where, um, there is two sides."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1614.655,"endTime":1618.165,"body":"Uh, typically you, you come froma side with too strong binding."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1618.165,"endTime":1620.505,"body":"You get to the peak whereyou have the best compromise."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1620.845,"endTime":1622.215,"body":"And then it goes down again."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1622.215,"endTime":1623.295,"body":"The rate goes down again."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1623.645,"endTime":1628.145,"body":"If your binding becomes too weak, andruthenium happens to be very much at"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1628.145,"endTime":1630.545,"body":"the peak of that, uh, of that volcano."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1630.545,"endTime":1635.285,"body":"So it has the right, uh, just theright binding energy to nitrogen,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1635.585,"endTime":1639.605,"body":"uh, in order to be very active in, inboth reactions, ammonia synthesis, as"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1639.605,"endTime":1641.795,"body":"well as, uh, as ammonia decomposition."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1642.2,"endTime":1645.35,"body":"Uh, it's also more active thanthe Iron catalyst, um, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1645.35,"endTime":1647.21,"body":"in the Haber Bosch, uh, case."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1647.21,"endTime":1651.57,"body":"But of course iron, uh, I mean it's,it's more or less an, an ideal catalyst"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1651.6,"endTime":1656.19,"body":"because iron is the, the cheapest, uh,cheapest metal, uh, you can imagine."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1656.19,"endTime":1660,"body":"And there is a, a huge, uh, uh,several orders of magnitudes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1660,"endTime":1660.75,"body":"I don't know exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1661.26,"endTime":1666.39,"body":"Uh, a price difference to, to ruthenium,uh, which, which makes, although it is, it"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1666.39,"endTime":1671.33,"body":"is the better catalyst makes it uneconomicto, to use it in in such large scale"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1671.495,"endTime":1672.26,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, definitely."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1672.26,"endTime":1676.33,"body":"I also used Rutheniumin my PhD research for."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1677.585,"endTime":1678.845,"body":"Amine synthesis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1678.905,"endTime":1682.235,"body":"So it's also this, uh,nitrogen compound in there."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1682.655,"endTime":1688.445,"body":"And, um, there it was also alwaysthe, the challenge that yeah, you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1688.445,"endTime":1692.675,"body":"could find a very great catalyst,but to bring it to the industry,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1693.305,"endTime":1695.735,"body":"ruthenium usually is too expensive."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1696.185,"endTime":1700.445,"body":"And that is also, I think, what'sthe case for this reaction,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1700.445,"endTime":1702.725,"body":"maybe for this small scale."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1702.815,"endTime":1705.125,"body":"Um, reactors you mentioned before."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1705.575,"endTime":1711.845,"body":"The ruthenium catalyst because youdon't need as much might be viable, but"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1712.055,"endTime":1716.255,"body":"if you want to do it on large scale,you need huge amounts of catalyst"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1716.255,"endTime":1719.435,"body":"and then ideally a cheap catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1720.065,"endTime":1724.955,"body":"And then, yeah, the iron would beideal, but it's not as reactive."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1724.955,"endTime":1729.275,"body":"So you looked at, uh, combinationalso with different metals."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1729.635,"endTime":1734.701,"body":"Was it, uh, just cobalt orwhat was your approach here to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1734.731,"endTime":1736.591,"body":"gain understanding from trends?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1736.591,"endTime":1737.581,"body":"As you said before."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1737.999,"endTime":1741.179,"body":"Malte: Yeah, it, it was, first of all,it was a bit inspired by this, by this"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1741.179,"endTime":1743.159,"body":"volcano curve that I just mentioned."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1743.159,"endTime":1747.689,"body":"So, um, if, if you look at it, then youwill find iron on the, a bit too much."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1747.719,"endTime":1748.469,"body":"It's near the peak is good."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1749.384,"endTime":1751.964,"body":"Uh, but it's a bit too much onthe too strong binding side."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1752.564,"endTime":1757.854,"body":"And, then you can look at the other sidein, in a, in a very, um, simplified, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1757.854,"endTime":1761.934,"body":"or in, in a maybe simple approach, youwould just say, okay, by allowing you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1761.934,"endTime":1764.094,"body":"combine the, the properties of the two."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1764.304,"endTime":1767.364,"body":"So we would need to look forsomething at the too weak binding"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1767.364,"endTime":1771.864,"body":"side of the volcano with a, maybewith a similar distance to the peak."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1772.269,"endTime":1776.159,"body":"And then you immediately would,would, would find cobalt there."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1776.699,"endTime":1781.349,"body":"And then also, uh, you can, if you lookat the face diagram of the two, uh, there"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1781.349,"endTime":1783.749,"body":"is, they alloy, they alloy quite easily."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1783.749,"endTime":1787.859,"body":"That's of course also an Im animportant, uh, an important aspect."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1788.009,"endTime":1792.359,"body":"So, um, we could also varythe iron to cooperate ratio"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1792.359,"endTime":1792.959,"body":"in this bimetallic catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1794.114,"endTime":1798.184,"body":"And, what we found, and that was a verynice result, is that we can really kind of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1798.184,"endTime":1800.404,"body":"describe that peak of the volcano, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1800.404,"endTime":1802.594,"body":"We start from pure ironand we end up pure cobalt."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1802.954,"endTime":1806.164,"body":"And in the middle at, at theone-to-one, uh, ratio, we found"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1806.164,"endTime":1807.484,"body":"the, the highest activity."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1807.784,"endTime":1812.014,"body":"And if we have less cobalt in, thenwe are in between that peak at the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1812.014,"endTime":1814.024,"body":"iron position on, on that volcano."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1814.264,"endTime":1816.574,"body":"So that, um, well."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1816.938,"endTime":1821.153,"body":"Simplified view seems to be true tosome extent and is also nothing that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1821.153,"endTime":1825.563,"body":"we invented, uh, uh, but it, it can beapplied on the iron and cobalt case,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1825.623,"endTime":1829.223,"body":"uh, for, for ammonia composition andwith, with, with very nice results."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1829.223,"endTime":1833.781,"body":"And that was also what, what our theorycolleagues, confim so, so kind of you,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1833.801,"endTime":1837.816,"body":"you, you, you climb from the iron positionto the top, towards the top of the volcano"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1837.996,"endTime":1842.976,"body":"by alloying, just, uh, or putting in justthe right amount of cobalt, uh, moderating"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1842.976,"endTime":1845.106,"body":"the two strong binding to nitrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1845.106,"endTime":1846.486,"body":"Make it a little bit weaker,but not make it too weak."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1846.561,"endTime":1846.981,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1847.418,"endTime":1852.518,"body":"And how does this combined,uh, iron Cobalt catalyst then"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1852.518,"endTime":1854.048,"body":"compare with the ruthenium?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1855.938,"endTime":1859.588,"body":"Malte: Yeah, I think not it's, it isnot orders of magnitude less active,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1859.978,"endTime":1861.568,"body":"uh, but it, it is less active."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1861.598,"endTime":1867.643,"body":"So, it's not a substitution for ruthenium,but what we could do with this catalyst"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1868.003,"endTime":1872.233,"body":"and, um, of course you can look atactivity from different perspectives."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1872.533,"endTime":1875.533,"body":"In academia, typically we,we are interested in the."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1876.238,"endTime":1880.588,"body":"Um, activity per activesite or per surface metal."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1880.618,"endTime":1885.358,"body":"And, uh, there ruthenium, I thinkstill is unbeaten, but what we can"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1885.358,"endTime":1890.518,"body":"easily do with those, uh, more, or withthis cheaper and more abundant metals"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1890.731,"endTime":1892.831,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, it should be ordersof magnitude cheaper, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1893.458,"endTime":1894.418,"body":"Malte: Yes, yes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1894.538,"endTime":1895.948,"body":"And we can increase the loading."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1896.348,"endTime":1899.958,"body":"And you probably know that the,the Haber Bosch Catalyst has"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1899.958,"endTime":1901.398,"body":"an extremely high iron loading."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1901.728,"endTime":1902.868,"body":"It's around 90%."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1902.868,"endTime":1909.618,"body":"Is, is so like a typical noble metalcatalyst, like in three-way catalyst, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1909.648,"endTime":1913.398,"body":"for instance, or also anything that youwould think of about ruthenium would be"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1913.458,"endTime":1916.398,"body":"loading on the order of one or 2% because."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1916.908,"endTime":1920.148,"body":"It's so expensive and, and you,it's, it's like weight loading"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1920.148,"endTime":1921.498,"body":"and you pay by weight, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1922.128,"endTime":1926.028,"body":"Uh, but with those cheaper metals,what we can do is we can easily, if,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1926.028,"endTime":1930.048,"body":"if we can, if we manage to synthesizethem correctly, we can easily increase"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1930.048,"endTime":1933.648,"body":"the loading to, well, in case ofhow a Bosch to 90% or something."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1934.088,"endTime":1939.158,"body":"And still have a large metalsurface area exposed, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1939.218,"endTime":1942.858,"body":"The, the fraction of surface atomscompared to those in the bulk"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1942.878,"endTime":1943.923,"body":"that are not using catalysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1944.483,"endTime":1948.713,"body":"Is really bad, but the numberof total number of surface,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1948.803,"endTime":1950.783,"body":"um, metal atoms is not so bad."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1951.053,"endTime":1954.473,"body":"And so you, you would never be ableto do this with ruthenium, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1954.473,"endTime":1958.733,"body":"You cannot use ruthenium with a, um,say, 50 nanometer large particle,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1958.763,"endTime":1962.873,"body":"which is you can just not afford tonot use all of that ruthenium that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1962.903,"endTime":1965.963,"body":"is in, in, in the bulk or in the, inthe middle of that, of that particle."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1966.443,"endTime":1969.543,"body":"But with iron and also with the ironcobalt, you can, you can simply do it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1970.358,"endTime":1975.638,"body":"And, uh, so we have, um, and that waslike a, a special synthetic strategy"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1976.038,"endTime":1978.233,"body":"that we are also looking a lot at."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1978.593,"endTime":1983.033,"body":"Um, we look, we are using quite highloadings, so we have more than 70% of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1983.063,"endTime":1990.603,"body":"metal loadings and only like 30% of, uh,roundabout of typical support material."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1991.143,"endTime":1997.428,"body":"So those catalysts really look likea. Like a metallic sponge more than"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1997.428,"endTime":2002.198,"body":"a, a typical supported system whereyou have an extended porous but inert"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2002.528,"endTime":2007.148,"body":"material where you have very smallnanoparticles of, of noble metals."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2007.478,"endTime":2011.468,"body":"And, and that allows to increasethe number of surface sites"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2011.918,"endTime":2014.198,"body":"per reactor volume, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2014.798,"endTime":2018.928,"body":"Typically in large scale production, youhave a certain, well, the, you have a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2019.078,"endTime":2021.478,"body":"large investment to create that reactor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2021.478,"endTime":2024.928,"body":"It has a certain volume and youneed to fill as much surface"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2024.928,"endTime":2026.488,"body":"atoms in there as possible."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2026.728,"endTime":2029.878,"body":"And it's not so important if, if, ifyou don't need to pay for them a, a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2029.878,"endTime":2032.638,"body":"lot of money, it's not so importantwhether you also fill in bulk atoms."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2032.938,"endTime":2036.648,"body":"So, uh, in, in this case wecan gain something in that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2036.723,"endTime":2041.133,"body":"Uh, in that comparison with Ruthenium,not by the high activity of the single"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2041.133,"endTime":2045.273,"body":"surface atom, but by the amount ofsurface atom that, that we total amount"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2045.273,"endTime":2046.863,"body":"that we can load into such reactors."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2047.163,"endTime":2050.343,"body":"And that's, that's also whatmakes these more base metals,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2050.793,"endTime":2054.143,"body":"um, interesting in heterogeneouscatalysis or interesting for us."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2054.233,"endTime":2057.233,"body":"Um, also looking at thesynthetic challenges."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2058.013,"endTime":2061.243,"body":"How do you stabilize themat very high loadings?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2061.333,"endTime":2065.773,"body":"Uh, so what you do not want is ofcourse, that they sinter to one large"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2065.773,"endTime":2068.803,"body":"metal block, whatever this, this is"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2069.073,"endTime":2074.053,"body":"So you need to somehow, yes, youneed to somehow have the porosity"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2074.473,"endTime":2078.253,"body":"and, and stabilize the porosity,but you don't need necessarily"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2078.253,"endTime":2080.023,"body":"to work with one or two nanometer"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2080.038,"endTime":2080.118,"body":"Kevin: Hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2080.323,"endTime":2080.983,"body":"Malte: particles for that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2081.403,"endTime":2086.953,"body":"Kevin: So look at the properties ofthe whole Catalyst setup in the end,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2086.953,"endTime":2093.403,"body":"and not just the active site itself, sothat you optimize for the most efficient"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2093.403,"endTime":2098.473,"body":"reaction process rather than justlooking at the single site Catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2099.044,"endTime":2099.464,"body":"Malte: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2099.564,"endTime":2102.414,"body":"I would say so it's, it's a bitof shift of the perspective maybe."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2102.414,"endTime":2102.714,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2102.714,"endTime":2105.834,"body":"It's, it's not a, so we are not doingprocess optimization or anything."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2105.834,"endTime":2106.944,"body":"It is all on the catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2107.364,"endTime":2113.484,"body":"But it is also important how thecatalyst formulation is synthesized,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2113.874,"endTime":2117.324,"body":"uh, in order to, to compare catalysts."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2117.394,"endTime":2118.864,"body":"It's not iron equals iron."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2118.924,"endTime":2121.444,"body":"I can, I can make a very badand a very good iron catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2121.444,"endTime":2123.994,"body":"I could do the same with ruthenium,and it's, unfortunately, it's"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2123.994,"endTime":2125.224,"body":"very easy to, to make it bad."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2125.564,"endTime":2129.554,"body":"And to have this high porositywith a high exposed metal surface"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2129.554,"endTime":2133.274,"body":"area is, is sometimes challengingand it has a lot to do with, with"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2133.274,"endTime":2135.434,"body":"inorganic solid state chemistry."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2135.434,"endTime":2137.984,"body":"So I, I come back to what I,what I said in the beginning."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2138.174,"endTime":2141.464,"body":"That's some aspects that, that, thatare needed in order to be able to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2141.464,"endTime":2145.814,"body":"stabilize these porous sponge likestructures, uh, that, that we, that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2145.874,"endTime":2146.114,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2146.804,"endTime":2147.014,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2147.014,"endTime":2147.794,"body":"And um."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2148.319,"endTime":2155.699,"body":"Also the synthesis has to be somewhateasy because, um, that's also one"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2155.699,"endTime":2159.809,"body":"of the problems with homogeneouscatalysis that I did, that you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2159.809,"endTime":2164.099,"body":"have sometimes very difficult tosynthesize ligands, and they're very"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2164.099,"endTime":2165.749,"body":"expensive to make in large scale."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2165.749,"endTime":2171.359,"body":"But when you are in the solidstate chemistry, sometimes"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2171.359,"endTime":2172.409,"body":"the process is easier."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2172.409,"endTime":2173.399,"body":"But as you said, it's."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2173.789,"endTime":2177.569,"body":"Difficult to get the exactright pore size and exact right,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2178.049,"endTime":2180.509,"body":"uh, structure of the solid."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2180.509,"endTime":2185.369,"body":"So, uh, you develop thissynthesis method for this iron,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2185.429,"endTime":2188.579,"body":"cobalt, and magnesium oxide."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2189.269,"endTime":2194.519,"body":"I think, uh, would this be relativelyeasy to do also on larger scale?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2194.885,"endTime":2200.33,"body":"Malte: Yeah, at least it, I think itwould be more, more facile, than most"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2200.33,"endTime":2205.05,"body":"things in molecular catalysis, whichare, of course very, very important, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2205.08,"endTime":2207.09,"body":"catalysts and, and, and you have, uh."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2207.57,"endTime":2211,"body":"I always, of course, I'm, I'm a bitjealous that you can characterize"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2211.05,"endTime":2214.95,"body":"your metal surroundings so good, andthat you can count your, active sites"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2214.95,"endTime":2217.11,"body":"so good in, in molecular catalysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2217.35,"endTime":2219.285,"body":"This is all big problems inin heterogeneous catalysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2220.275,"endTime":2221.925,"body":"But, um, you are right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2221.925,"endTime":2228.435,"body":"The, uh, the, the scalability of thesynthesis and scalability in also"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2228.435,"endTime":2235.815,"body":"in means of reproducibility and,uh, in particular also cost, uh, is"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2235.875,"endTime":2240.338,"body":"probably easier in solid state orin, in, in heterogene s catalysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2240.698,"endTime":2243.608,"body":"And of course there are many examples."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2243.608,"endTime":2245.498,"body":"As you know, hydrogen scatalysis are, are industrially."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2245.978,"endTime":2247.838,"body":"Have, have a wide field of applications."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2247.838,"endTime":2250.843,"body":"And so their manufacturer,seems to be under control."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2250.913,"endTime":2255.083,"body":"There are, um, industry, industry cando this, can provide those materials."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2255.443,"endTime":2258.323,"body":"Um, but of course, yeah, youwant them to, you want the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2258.323,"endTime":2260.673,"body":"synthesis to be ideally aqueous."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2261.443,"endTime":2265.393,"body":"No, no other typically moreharmful solvents involved."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2265.393,"endTime":2268.153,"body":"You want to have it aslittle steps as possible."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2268.153,"endTime":2271.963,"body":"So if it's a 20 step ligandsynthesis that you need to do,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2272.023,"endTime":2275.743,"body":"that's probably prohibitive for anapplication, uh, in, in the end."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2276.163,"endTime":2280.823,"body":"Um, and, um, this of course is not truefor application, like in pharmaceuticals."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2280.883,"endTime":2282.383,"body":"Uh uh, no, no problem."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2282.383,"endTime":2286.493,"body":"Probably because the, the cost ofthe product justifies also that the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2286.493,"endTime":2288.623,"body":"catalyst can be, uh, can be expensive."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2289.013,"endTime":2294.683,"body":"But, um, for these, um, wellenergy relevant base materials,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2294.713,"endTime":2296.243,"body":"that is certainly an aspect."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2296.663,"endTime":2300.743,"body":"So what, what we are using mostly is amethod that is called co-precipitation."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2301.373,"endTime":2305.978,"body":"And, I always explain, it's like theinvert of what most people start with"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2306.018,"endTime":2310.453,"body":"when they study chemistry, because at, atleast in Germany, what people do a lot is,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2310.483,"endTime":2313.663,"body":"they look at aqueous separation of ions."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2314.003,"endTime":2318.203,"body":"They want to separate, uh, thesulfides, for instance, uh, in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2318.203,"endTime":2320.183,"body":"order for analytic chemistry."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2320.423,"endTime":2322.823,"body":"And now the, the targetis exactly opposite."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2322.823,"endTime":2326.873,"body":"You have two ions and you want to bringthem together in, in, in one solid, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2326.873,"endTime":2328.913,"body":"You don't want to to,to dissolve your solid."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2328.913,"endTime":2333.003,"body":"It's separate it, but you want to, uh,uh, bring them together in one material."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2333.423,"endTime":2336.663,"body":"And, uh, that's what we doin, in, in co-precipitation."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2337.023,"endTime":2340.803,"body":"Um, so for instance, as you mentioned,we have iron and cobalt, which we have"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2340.803,"endTime":2345.183,"body":"already discussed to be the active phase,and then we in, in the final catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2345.363,"endTime":2349.773,"body":"And then we have these, uh, uh,lower amount, like this, 30% or"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2349.773,"endTime":2351.513,"body":"something of magnesium oxide."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2351.513,"endTime":2356.373,"body":"In magnesium oxide would have thefunction as the support stabilizing"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2356.373,"endTime":2357.963,"body":"the metallic nanoparticles."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2358.353,"endTime":2364.548,"body":"And in order to, to obtain smallparticles of both the support component"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2364.548,"endTime":2365.838,"body":"as well as the metal component."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2366.138,"endTime":2369.558,"body":"We need to intermix themas good as possible."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2369.798,"endTime":2374.028,"body":"They, they should, ideally on an atomiclevel, they should be statistically"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2374.028,"endTime":2378.988,"body":"distributed, because in the end,uh, we will, we will segregate them"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2379.048,"endTime":2381.683,"body":"forming metal from the one partand the oxide from the other part."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2382.393,"endTime":2386.803,"body":"Um, and in order to limit thatprocess to happen only on, on, on"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2386.803,"endTime":2390.793,"body":"a very small scale they need to beinter dispersed and that's, that's"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2390.793,"endTime":2395.528,"body":"what we can do with co-precipitation,by adding, uh, precipitating agent"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2395.528,"endTime":2399.093,"body":"to, to a mixed solution of all thecomponents that we, that are important"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2399.093,"endTime":2400.568,"body":"that we want to have in our catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2401.048,"endTime":2403.718,"body":"And then we get the, thecatalyst precursor material."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2404.678,"endTime":2407.898,"body":"And that is itself,not necessarily porous."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2407.918,"endTime":2412.478,"body":"It can be a, a well crystallinematerial, not in all cases, but the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2412.478,"endTime":2417.518,"body":"porosity then develops when we in,in subsequent steps, decompose those."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2417.518,"endTime":2419.468,"body":"So it's also multiple steps into this."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2419.468,"endTime":2421.328,"body":"We, we co precipitate the precursor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2421.718,"endTime":2424.778,"body":"We, first of all, thentypically calzine the precursor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2424.778,"endTime":2428.768,"body":"So the, the precursor could be ahydroxide or a carbonate that you can"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2428.778,"endTime":2430.928,"body":"calcine and decompose into the oxides."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2431.138,"endTime":2433.243,"body":"Then you have already anintimate mixture of the oxides."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2433.898,"endTime":2437.048,"body":"And then, and that is a step thattypically, that, that would be the, the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2437.048,"endTime":2439.508,"body":"stage where you also purchase catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2439.508,"endTime":2443.763,"body":"It's typically the, the calzined version,and then only in the reactor itself,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2444.093,"endTime":2448.527,"body":"the, an applied catalyst is reduced orat least the components that are noble"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2448.527,"endTime":2450.477,"body":"enough, are reduced to the metallic state."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2450.477,"endTime":2452.667,"body":"In our case, that thatwould be iron and cobalt."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2452.877,"endTime":2456.487,"body":"And the magnesium oxide obviouslywould stay in the form of the oxide."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2456.797,"endTime":2458.147,"body":"And that is where the actual."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2458.957,"endTime":2463.427,"body":"Nano structure or porosity of thecatalyst is, is formed because"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2463.427,"endTime":2467.447,"body":"then it determines to what extentdo those metal particles grow."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2467.897,"endTime":2471.797,"body":"And what you want in the end is thatthey are kind of in an alternating"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2471.797,"endTime":2474.737,"body":"fashion, always metal oxide."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2474.737,"endTime":2480.147,"body":"Metal oxide, so that they, or theoxide acts as a physical spacer between"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2480.147,"endTime":2481.737,"body":"the metals, preventing them from"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2481.742,"endTime":2482.162,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2482.337,"endTime":2482.517,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2482.517,"endTime":2488.038,"body":"In one of your papers there was a picturewhere it shows that it forms somehow"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2488.038,"endTime":2492.418,"body":"of a mesh, and then you have also forthe reaction later on the way for the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2492.418,"endTime":2495.568,"body":"gases to diffuse through the catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2496.308,"endTime":2496.678,"body":"Malte: Yes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2496.678,"endTime":2500.528,"body":"This is a, more is more a schematicpicture, but this is really how, how"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2500.528,"endTime":2502.118,"body":"we envision, envision that, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2502.118,"endTime":2506.738,"body":"That we have the larger metal particlesthat are separated by smaller oxide"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2506.738,"endTime":2508.778,"body":"particles, but in between there are pores."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2509.708,"endTime":2512.588,"body":"And it's, the pores of that sizethat we need is, is in the meso"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2512.588,"endTime":2516.098,"body":"porous range so that we get transportof, of gases through those pores."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2516.548,"endTime":2519.848,"body":"And on the pore walls we havethese larger metal particles."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2519.848,"endTime":2524.378,"body":"And of course the scheme of the mesh is inlike an is is not as ordered, obviously."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2524.378,"endTime":2524.678,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2524.678,"endTime":2528.218,"body":"We have not, not all the particleshave exactly the same size, but we"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2528.218,"endTime":2533.918,"body":"have a still relatively narrow and,and unimodal size distribution."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2534.323,"endTime":2539.783,"body":"And I always like these drawings in orderto also make the difference clear to a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2539.843,"endTime":2545.273,"body":"typical supported catalyst where you wouldhave the porosity only from the support."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2545.573,"endTime":2549.183,"body":"And then the metal in the porewalls, um, are on the pore walls."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2549.183,"endTime":2552.803,"body":"And here the metal particles, theythemselves make up the pore walls"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2552.823,"endTime":2553.243,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2553.533,"endTime":2554.163,"body":"Malte: to some extent."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2554.163,"endTime":2557.208,"body":"Kevin: So that's a big theRuthenium catalyst, where it's"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2557.268,"endTime":2558.508,"body":"mostly the support, right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2559.683,"endTime":2560.613,"body":"Malte: Exactly, exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2560.613,"endTime":2563.583,"body":"For Ruthenium, you wouldwant to have small particles."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2563.763,"endTime":2567.003,"body":"Maybe one nanometer is not good becausethere's also a certain particle size"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2567.003,"endTime":2568.393,"body":"effect that is known for ruthenium."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2568.413,"endTime":2572.133,"body":"But let's say three nanometers is issomething where you find high activity."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2572.718,"endTime":2574.788,"body":"But then you don't wantthem to grow larger."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2574.968,"endTime":2579.348,"body":"You don't want them to form extendedstructures, uh, because all that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2579.348,"endTime":2582.067,"body":"would mean that there would beruthenium atoms that are unused, in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2582.287,"endTime":2584.027,"body":"the bulk of those larger particles."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2584.267,"endTime":2586.157,"body":"And for iron, we simplydon't care too much."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2586.307,"endTime":2589.217,"body":"And we can make the poor walls,we can create them from the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2589.217,"endTime":2592.242,"body":"iron particles, because, yeah,because it, it is affordable."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2593.062,"endTime":2593.392,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2593.782,"endTime":2600.482,"body":"And, uh, when you also, um, on thesynthesis part, then to create this, you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2600.482,"endTime":2604.232,"body":"need a very well dispersed precursor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2604.232,"endTime":2609.212,"body":"Otherwise you get some big metalclumps in one part and just a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2609.212,"endTime":2611.042,"body":"lot of oxide in the other part."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2611.042,"endTime":2613.952,"body":"And ideally, it should be well dispersed."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2615.787,"endTime":2618.517,"body":"Malte: I said dispersed, but maybedispersion is not the right term here,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2618.517,"endTime":2623.257,"body":"because in the, in the precursor, we canlive with what we call a solid solution."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2623.947,"endTime":2624.517,"body":"It right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2624.517,"endTime":2628.567,"body":"The dispersion, in catalysis typicallyis referred to as the fraction of surface"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2628.567,"endTime":2632.917,"body":"atoms versus the overall amount ofatoms, and there are other definitions in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2632.917,"endTime":2636.877,"body":"colloidal chemistry of a dispersion, um,that are more on a, on a particle basis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2636.877,"endTime":2640.807,"body":"But here we have, we can haveone large particle of, of,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2640.867,"endTime":2642.367,"body":"let's say a mixed hydroxide."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2642.787,"endTime":2647.647,"body":"So we have iron, cobalt, andmagnesium in one hydroxide phase,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2647.647,"endTime":2649.087,"body":"and we have a large particle of that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2649.237,"endTime":2650.887,"body":"And that's, that is a solid solution."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2651.457,"endTime":2654.107,"body":"And, the surface area doesn'tnecessarily need to be higher."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2654.632,"endTime":2658.879,"body":"But when we design it to the oxide andthen reduce a, in a subsequent step,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2658.884,"endTime":2664.549,"body":"the, the metal fraction, this largerparticle can, and that's more a like,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2664.549,"endTime":2666.889,"body":"like, like a top-down structuring."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2667.019,"endTime":2670.344,"body":"The larger, the previouslylarger precursor particle can"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2670.344,"endTime":2672.444,"body":"create smaller pores in itself."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2672.449,"endTime":2672.639,"body":"It."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2672.984,"endTime":2673.284,"body":"Kevin: No."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2673.289,"endTime":2673.419,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2673.914,"endTime":2676.794,"body":"Malte: Fall apart is not the right wordbecause we want it to be mechanically"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2677.094,"endTime":2681.954,"body":"strong so it does not fall apart, butit becomes porous in that process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2681.954,"endTime":2685.044,"body":"And that is because when wedecompose the hydroxide, we of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2685.044,"endTime":2687.654,"body":"course, uh, emit water from it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2688.014,"endTime":2692.074,"body":"The water has to go from somewhere,it leaves pores, it leaves void spaces"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2692.394,"endTime":2697.104,"body":"that are all important in order tocreate those pores in the final catalyst"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2697.104,"endTime":2699.264,"body":"that we, uh, that we want in the end."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2699.264,"endTime":2705.085,"body":"So those precursors are solidsolutions of, of all, components"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2705.085,"endTime":2709.615,"body":"that we need, meaning that they arestatistically distributed well, and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2709.615,"endTime":2714.595,"body":"the, the porosity is developed ina well maybe top down subsequent"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2714.595,"endTime":2716.345,"body":"step from those precursor particle."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2716.345,"endTime":2720.72,"body":"And it's also, I, I think forreproducibility is also a good"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2720.72,"endTime":2725.28,"body":"thing that because the crystallinityof the precursor is of course, a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2725.28,"endTime":2727.56,"body":"certain thermodynamic sink, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2727.71,"endTime":2731.52,"body":"When something crystallizes, first ofall, you can, characterize it very well."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2731.52,"endTime":2734.83,"body":"And also if you repeat your synthesisseveral times, you can be more or"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2734.83,"endTime":2740.11,"body":"less sure it, it will find that localthermodynamic sink during the synthesis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2740.11,"endTime":2744.81,"body":"This is a bit different from colloidalapproaches for instance, and, okay, they"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2744.81,"endTime":2748.95,"body":"are larger crystals, but you can livewith that because you, not, not you,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2748.95,"endTime":2750.87,"body":"but in kind of a self-assembled manner."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2750.9,"endTime":2753.18,"body":"They will, be nano structuredin the, in the subsequent steps."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2753.25,"endTime":2753.67,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2754.955,"endTime":2760.595,"body":"So also for the synthesis part, thereproducibility with your approach,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2761.165,"endTime":2766.085,"body":"it's more easy because of you using acrystalline structure to to start with"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2766.085,"endTime":2768.605,"body":"and then creating a mesh from that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2769.085,"endTime":2769.235,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2769.235,"endTime":2770.135,"body":"Very interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2770.495,"endTime":2778.115,"body":"So what would be then necessary touse this reaction in a larger scale?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2778.115,"endTime":2782.705,"body":"Or what do you think is the biggestchallenge now to scale up this process?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2783.366,"endTime":2787.806,"body":"Malte: Well, I think, I mean, for the, forthe overall scenario, ammonia becoming a."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2788.916,"endTime":2793.066,"body":"An energy vector, probably the bottleneckis, and we are again on the synthesis"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2793.086,"endTime":2798.096,"body":"side, the bottleneck is to providegreen hydrogen for a green Haber Bosch"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2798.576,"endTime":2802.556,"body":"because, uh, in the end that is I mean,we, we are not talking about gray or,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2802.556,"endTime":2805.466,"body":"fossil derived, uh, ammonia in the end."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2806.206,"endTime":2810.436,"body":"Um, and, uh, well it's, it's a scaleup of, of that process only makes"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2810.436,"endTime":2814.296,"body":"sense if there is green hydrogenaround and, sorry, green ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2814.776,"endTime":2818.256,"body":"And, we make ammonia on a megatonscale, but it's not green at the moment."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2818.316,"endTime":2822.701,"body":"And, that I think would be, uh,like for the, for the overall"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2822.701,"endTime":2824.171,"body":"scenario is what is needed."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2824.171,"endTime":2825.341,"body":"So we need to work on the."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2825.941,"endTime":2830.151,"body":"On a source, cheap source ofgreen, renewable hydrogen and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2830.151,"endTime":2835.031,"body":"that I think is also technologywise, not such a huge challenge."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2835.331,"endTime":2839.831,"body":"We need to convert the normal HaberBosch to a green Haber Bosch, which just"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2839.831,"endTime":2844.441,"body":"means replacing the source of hydrogen,not from, steam forming of natural"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2844.441,"endTime":2846.841,"body":"gas, but from, uh, water electrolysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2847.036,"endTime":2851.326,"body":"Kevin: The reaction itself should bethe same, but the process is so well"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2851.326,"endTime":2856.046,"body":"integrated with the natural gas andthe, cracking of the natural gas."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2856.046,"endTime":2860.516,"body":"And it's, yeah, to separate thesynthesis from the rest of the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2860.516,"endTime":2862.73,"body":"process might be a challenge there."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2863.354,"endTime":2863.924,"body":"Malte: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2865.094,"endTime":2869.154,"body":"It, I mean the, the, the most effortsI think and I'm not an expert, but, but"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2869.514,"endTime":2873.054,"body":"from my knowledge of an, of an ammoniasynthesis plant, the most effort is."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2873.594,"endTime":2878.704,"body":"Creating the syngas and purifying,the syngas, the Haber Bosch stage in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2878.709,"endTime":2883.739,"body":"the end is probably, um, I mean the,the efficiency is high on that stage."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2884.159,"endTime":2888.779,"body":"And the nice thing is we would only needthat stage for such a green ammonia idea."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2889.229,"endTime":2894.039,"body":"But of course we would need to replacethe rest and probably, purification"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2894.039,"endTime":2895.734,"body":"in in water electrolysis is also."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2896.694,"endTime":2898.404,"body":"Not so much of a challenge."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2898.449,"endTime":2902.689,"body":"I guess the hydrogen is less contaminatedcompared to, to hydrogen from, from"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2902.689,"endTime":2907.999,"body":"fossils, uh, sources but of course theelectrolysis itself is something that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2907.999,"endTime":2914.689,"body":"is, also as we know technologicallypossible but not scaled up yet."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2914.809,"endTime":2917.649,"body":"And that is, I think, but alsoagain, the beauty of the idea."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2917.934,"endTime":2922.144,"body":"Because that would allow to bringthat more or less existing Haber"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2922.194,"endTime":2927.144,"body":"Bosch technology stage to a sitewhere hydrogen is really cheap."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2927.624,"endTime":2927.744,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2927.774,"endTime":2931.194,"body":"As you, as you said, the idea is to makegreen ammonia in order to transport it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2931.554,"endTime":2935.454,"body":"So we, we would make the hydrogenor humankind would make the hydrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2935.454,"endTime":2938.454,"body":"there where we have a lot ofsolar power, a lot of wind power."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2938.844,"endTime":2943.984,"body":"And reducing the price and also thenall being preferable to hydrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2943.984,"endTime":2947.314,"body":"costs that we would envisionprobably here in, in Germany."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2947.404,"endTime":2951.184,"body":"I mean also, also those for instance,Schleswig-Holstein when when the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2951.184,"endTime":2954.344,"body":"wind blows too hard, they shutoff the wind park because the net"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2954.344,"endTime":2955.934,"body":"can take up all the electricity."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2956.294,"endTime":2958.664,"body":"And one could also, Ithink is also important."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2958.664,"endTime":2961.604,"body":"One could also think aboutusing that energy to go into."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2961.934,"endTime":2963.939,"body":"Something like greenhydrogen or green ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2964.449,"endTime":2969.789,"body":"But of course it would never be a24 7 process that you would like to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2969.789,"endTime":2971.819,"body":"have if you make such investments."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2972.129,"endTime":2975.539,"body":"And that is what I think is reallyattractive in going to countries"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2975.539,"endTime":2980.189,"body":"where they maybe are buildingindustrial infrastructure anyway"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2980.239,"endTime":2981.704,"body":"at the time of their development."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2981.704,"endTime":2983.324,"body":"And then building that type"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2983.504,"endTime":2985.064,"body":"Kevin: Make it green from the beginning."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2986.024,"endTime":2986.204,"body":"Hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2986.684,"endTime":2990.824,"body":"Malte: Yes, that would allow to supplythe world with, with cheap green ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2991.274,"endTime":2997.784,"body":"Uh, and then of course, also, we asan energy importing nation could, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2997.784,"endTime":3002.764,"body":"envision new trading partners goingaway from, fossil, uh, sources with"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3002.764,"endTime":3006.344,"body":"all the political conflicts that isalso there with them and maybe have"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3006.344,"endTime":3010.319,"body":"new partners, stable democracies,ideally, to get the energy from them."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3010.804,"endTime":3016.054,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, exactly, because, uh, alsotransporting the electrons as electricity"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3016.114,"endTime":3018.694,"body":"over a large distance is not that easy."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3018.694,"endTime":3023.391,"body":"And when we have solar or wind power, thatusually creates the electricity and then."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3024.097,"endTime":3029.077,"body":"This would be a good way to transportthis electricity in the end from"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3029.917,"endTime":3034.147,"body":"countries with a lot of solarand wind to bring it to here to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3034.492,"endTime":3036.142,"body":"Malte: yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3036.262,"endTime":3036.442,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3036.447,"endTime":3039.382,"body":"If, if you consider like a fuel cellapplication for the hydrogen, in the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3039.382,"endTime":3040.972,"body":"end, it would be exactly that, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3040.972,"endTime":3046.782,"body":"You, you would go back to electric,energy, and of course it is less efficient"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3046.782,"endTime":3052.602,"body":"than a battery, but you would not ship abattery, I guess, or, or many batteries."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3052.652,"endTime":3057.447,"body":"Uh, just for cost reasons of,of the properly, also for energy"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3057.567,"endTime":3059.157,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, Yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3060.147,"endTime":3066.227,"body":"And um, yeah, now I think we cancome to an end of this discussion,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3066.737,"endTime":3068.792,"body":"um, with the closing question."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3068.982,"endTime":3071.392,"body":"What is your favoritediscovery in chemistry?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3072.184,"endTime":3072.874,"body":"Malte: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3072.974,"endTime":3077.46,"body":"I hope my favorite discoveryis still to come in, in the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3077.46,"endTime":3079.04,"body":"rest of my scientific life."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3079.04,"endTime":3082.46,"body":"But, but so far if I look back,I would say, and of course it's"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3082.46,"endTime":3085.98,"body":"an easy target now, I would sayindeed, like the development of the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3085.98,"endTime":3090.63,"body":"Haber Bosch process, because it'salso like a blueprint in a way."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3090.63,"endTime":3093.206,"body":"And, and you also address thatin in your podcast episode."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3093.206,"endTime":3097.736,"body":"Uh, it was also mankind was alsofaced like a global problem, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3097.766,"endTime":3100.516,"body":"Feeding the world at thedawn of industrialization."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3100.616,"endTime":3104.296,"body":"The need for, for replacing the, thenatural fertilizer with artificial"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3104.296,"endTime":3106.906,"body":"fertilizer and chemistry solved that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3106.966,"endTime":3111.976,"body":"And I think that's still a verybeautiful, uh, solution, which,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3112.036,"endTime":3114.736,"body":"uh, now, uh, yeah, can, can become."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3115.486,"endTime":3119.806,"body":"Relevant also to, to energy supply,not also to, to, to food supply."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3120.236,"endTime":3125.216,"body":"And I think it's a great story ofsuccess for chemistry and for for applied"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3125.606,"endTime":3132.166,"body":"chemistry and of course there are severalother very important, uh, developments,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3132.166,"endTime":3133.846,"body":"but now, now I would choose that one."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3134.011,"endTime":3134.611,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, great."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3134.641,"endTime":3138.121,"body":"That's also, as I said beforein a previous episode, my"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3138.391,"endTime":3140.221,"body":"favorite discovery in chemistry."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3140.221,"endTime":3146.791,"body":"It is really transformative for mankindand, uh, made all these humans that we"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3146.791,"endTime":3148.651,"body":"have today on the planet even possible."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3148.651,"endTime":3151.441,"body":"So it's a very important discovery."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3152.071,"endTime":3152.311,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3152.311,"endTime":3153.331,"body":"Thank you very much for."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3154.171,"endTime":3158.491,"body":"Insights in your research and veryinteresting for me to learn about"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3158.491,"endTime":3160.351,"body":"these, uh, catalyst synthesis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3160.876,"endTime":3161.068,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3161.278,"endTime":3161.748,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3162.523,"endTime":3163.093,"body":"Malte: Thank you."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3163.213,"endTime":3166.123,"body":"Yeah, I, I enjoyed it a lotand thanks for doing this with"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3166.123,"endTime":3167.383,"body":"these, with these podcasts."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3167.383,"endTime":3171.463,"body":"I think that's really nice to seethat, uh, you address or that I can"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3171.463,"endTime":3175.383,"body":"address chemists as the major audiencewith, with what we are doing here."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3175.383,"endTime":3175.773,"body":"Thanks a lot."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3176.375,"endTime":3177.965,"body":"Kevin: Also, thank you for listening."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3178.295,"endTime":3183.065,"body":"You can find links to Maltes publicationin the show notes, and don't forget"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3183.065,"endTime":3187.055,"body":"to follow, Innovate and React onwherever you get your podcasts."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3187.788,"endTime":3189.888,"body":"Until next time, keepinnovating and stay curious."}]}