{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":null,"startTime":2.46,"endTime":4.24,"body":"Kevin: Welcome to Innovate and React."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4.359,"endTime":10.45,"body":"I'm Kevin Hares, and today's episodewill be about AEM anion exchange membrane"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":10.709,"endTime":15.4,"body":"electrolysis, which might be the perfectcompromise between the normal alkaline"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":15.47,"endTime":20.48,"body":"electrolysis and the more developedproton exchange membrane electrolysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":21.16,"endTime":26.825,"body":"And today I am excited to talk to MiriamHesse and Bastian Kaufmann, who are"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":26.825,"endTime":31.865,"body":"researchers in a AEM at the Hydrogen andFuelcell Center in Duisburg, Germany."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":32.165,"endTime":33.095,"body":"Thank you for joining me."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":33.259,"endTime":34.142,"body":"Basti: Thanks for having us."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":34.549,"endTime":34.789,"body":"Miriam: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":34.789,"endTime":36.649,"body":"Thank you very much for inviting us."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":36.841,"endTime":42.577,"body":"Kevin: The English name of, zBT, is Ithink a bit more descriptive of what"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":42.577,"endTime":47.737,"body":"you do as the abbreviation only, uh,contains the fuel cells in German."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":47.967,"endTime":49.706,"body":"but let's start with your background."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":49.856,"endTime":52.313,"body":"What brought you to a AEM and ZBT?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":52.918,"endTime":57.358,"body":"Miriam: I started process engineeringat Ruhr Universit\u00e4t Bochum, and I"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":57.358,"endTime":63.398,"body":"focused on kinetics and reactionduring, uh, different reactors."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":63.568,"endTime":66.724,"body":"And And during my masters, Ihad the opportunity to wrote"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":66.724,"endTime":67.934,"body":"my thesis here at the ZBT."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":68.987,"endTime":72.107,"body":"Because I was interestedin water electrolysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":72.107,"endTime":72.767,"body":"And yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":72.767,"endTime":78.218,"body":"Since then I have been working inthe field of catalyst layer electrode"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":78.218,"endTime":83.358,"body":"fabrication for the anion exchangemembrane water electrolysis shortcut"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":83.408,"endTime":89.59,"body":"AEM, And yeah, for me it's interesting,uh, to work on materials and to improve"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":89.725,"endTime":95.248,"body":"the reactions, uh, of the electrolysis,for the production of green hydrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":95.677,"endTime":96.727,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, and you Basti?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":97.168,"endTime":97.318,"body":"Basti: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":97.318,"endTime":99.942,"body":"For me it's, kind of avery similar career path."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":100.002,"endTime":108.836,"body":"So I'm engineer and then duringmy, I would say masters, I kind of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":108.836,"endTime":110.726,"body":"came to the conclusion engineering."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":111.116,"endTime":113.906,"body":"It's not to, I'm not a typical engineer."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":114.146,"endTime":117.926,"body":"I would like to be a little bitmore focused on the research side of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":117.926,"endTime":122.756,"body":"things, but of course you don't endyour study close to the finish line,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":123.116,"endTime":126.956,"body":"so, so I was looking around and Ifound this whole hydrogen topic always"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":126.956,"endTime":129.176,"body":"interesting, but I had no clue about it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":129.176,"endTime":136.436,"body":"And then I just wrote the guys fromthe ZBT for a masters Then I did"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":136.436,"endTime":140.426,"body":"my, my student work there and alsostarted my master thesis there, which"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":140.426,"endTime":142.766,"body":"was not on AEM water electrolysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":142.766,"endTime":146.426,"body":"So Miriam's master was thefirst master thesis, was the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":146.426,"endTime":148.174,"body":"first, stuff we did on that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":148.504,"endTime":153.724,"body":"Uh, I was still working onPEM-fuelcells, uh, and new,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":154.414,"endTime":155.854,"body":"manufacturing technique in, in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":155.978,"endTime":156.398,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":156.694,"endTime":161.014,"body":"Basti: But after our, both of ourmaster thesis, which were kind of at"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":161.014,"endTime":166.264,"body":"the same time, we both started and onnow 50% of our group, of the AEM group."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":166.264,"endTime":169.864,"body":"So we basically, we are four peoplewith one group leader who was also"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":169.864,"endTime":171.904,"body":"our supervisor during our master."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":172.363,"endTime":172.603,"body":"Kevin: Hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":172.744,"endTime":172.924,"body":"Basti: And"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":173.233,"endTime":173.803,"body":"Kevin: Interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":173.944,"endTime":179.824,"body":"Basti: mostly concerned with the actualelectrochemical testing part and a little"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":179.824,"endTime":186.274,"body":"bit on the new methods and tricks thatone can maybe, uh, do to, to get a little"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":186.274,"endTime":188.134,"body":"bit more information out of your cells."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":188.388,"endTime":191.058,"body":"That's, uh, that's, but maybewe will get there today to,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":191.067,"endTime":191.187,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":191.628,"endTime":195.168,"body":"Basti: to be a little bitmore clear, not so nebulous"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":195.352,"endTime":195.772,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":196.797,"endTime":197.217,"body":"Yeah, sure."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":197.217,"endTime":204.027,"body":"We can get more into depth later, but,um, it's more like the, you're doing the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":204.027,"endTime":210.507,"body":"testing part and Miriam you're doing,uh, the catalysis research, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":211.736,"endTime":216.896,"body":"Miriam: Yeah, my focus is on the catalystlayer fabrication, but I also do the,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":216.896,"endTime":222.694,"body":"um, material characterization and alsothe testing, of, yeah, those electrodes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":222.694,"endTime":226.024,"body":"So it's the whole process I would say."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":227.376,"endTime":227.556,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":227.556,"endTime":230.796,"body":"That also emphasizes that the ZBT is."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":231.141,"endTime":233.871,"body":"Doing more than just, uh, fuel cells."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":234.351,"endTime":240.586,"body":"Um, maybe you can briefly tell abit more about what, uh, ZBT does."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":241.107,"endTime":246.987,"body":"Basti: Yeah, it's always a funny,uh, maybe a, a small anecdote on,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":247.017,"endTime":248.727,"body":"on the side just for the start."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":249.057,"endTime":251.607,"body":"We are currently looking for, um, for"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":251.816,"endTime":252.236,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":252.477,"endTime":255.777,"body":"Basti: to work for us, and oneof the first questions we always"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":255.777,"endTime":260.247,"body":"ask is, have you ever heard fromZBT before your applications?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":260.247,"endTime":261.867,"body":"And most of the time it's not."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":261.867,"endTime":262.857,"body":"Even if they are."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":263.187,"endTime":264.097,"body":"From the Duisburg area."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":264.206,"endTime":264.626,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":265.167,"endTime":268.047,"body":"Basti: our, our, uh, and we haveanother research institute right"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":268.047,"endTime":272.127,"body":"next to us, the Nets Building,which is also more known already."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":272.307,"endTime":275.697,"body":"So we are, we are in an interestingposition because in this whole"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":275.697,"endTime":278.997,"body":"academic world, we are a little bitless known, but on the other hand,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":279.177,"endTime":280.857,"body":"we are more known on the industry"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":281.517,"endTime":286.573,"body":"And that's, I would say, really,uh, strongly, um, shows or"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":286.573,"endTime":288.343,"body":"describes what set PT actually does."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":288.343,"endTime":292.817,"body":"So we, we, we do a lot of near research."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":292.817,"endTime":299.916,"body":"We do research that is, has alwaysthe industry application in mind and."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":299.92,"endTime":303.458,"body":"Centrum Fe, branch of cell techniqueor German name I would say the Hydrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":303.458,"endTime":305.048,"body":"Fuel cell Center tells a bit more"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":305.192,"endTime":305.492,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":305.558,"endTime":306.788,"body":"Basti: the hydrogen is part of it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":306.898,"endTime":311.578,"body":"so, we have been only doing fuel cell inthe past, but right now we are doing like"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":311.578,"endTime":317.578,"body":"the whole hydrogen value chain from comingfrom the storage, and the pipes and how we"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":317.578,"endTime":323.938,"body":"distribute, uh, hydrogen to then possibleapplications like fuel cells for all"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":323.938,"endTime":327.168,"body":"kinds of scales, to the electrolysis part."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":327.168,"endTime":328.038,"body":"So the production of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":328.147,"endTime":328.567,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":328.728,"endTime":333.048,"body":"Basti: which we are a part of,and depending on, on the group"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":333.048,"endTime":334.578,"body":"and the task and the scope."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":334.968,"endTime":339.828,"body":"The questions change from moreengineering focus to more, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":340.098,"endTime":342.288,"body":"classical chemistry research focused."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":342.618,"endTime":347.388,"body":"And that's quite interesting, uh,because then you get really heterogeneous"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":347.388,"endTime":351.181,"body":"teams and a lot of, differentdisciplines working on the stuff."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":351.181,"endTime":354.713,"body":"So that kinda makes a littlebit of the charm of the ZBT"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":355.127,"endTime":355.347,"body":"Kevin: Hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":355.363,"endTime":358.543,"body":"Basti: that, we are sitting betweentwo chairs, but actually trying"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":358.543,"endTime":360.193,"body":"to, to hold up and to manage."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":360.326,"endTime":365.096,"body":"but of course it also has, has itsshortcomings, especially regarding funding"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":365.366,"endTime":369.596,"body":"because we're not so easily funded,like the big, uh, research institutes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":369.926,"endTime":376.496,"body":"We have like 50% of our funding is,is based on projects that we write."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":376.496,"endTime":378.026,"body":"So proposals we write."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":378.941,"endTime":382.991,"body":"Each and every one of us writes likeone proposal per year so that we can"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":383.351,"endTime":384.971,"body":"keep the whole machinery running."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":385.301,"endTime":391.061,"body":"And then we have like a quarterroughly of direct industry, um,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":391.091,"endTime":392.741,"body":"contracts, which is also interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":393.401,"endTime":397.442,"body":"Let's say company xy wants to findsomething out and then they know we,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":397.442,"endTime":402.786,"body":"we are experts in, some technologyor some, some measurement technique."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":403.116,"endTime":407.106,"body":"Then they directly contact us and theydirectly pay us to do their research."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":407.106,"endTime":408.906,"body":"So that's stuff that we do."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":409.566,"endTime":413.886,"body":"And then we have some baseline fundingfrom, from north northern risk failure."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":414.276,"endTime":418.686,"body":"So that's, that's makes up thewhole, uh, sautee structure."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":418.746,"endTime":423.116,"body":"And we are, are independent in the sensethat we have our own CEO and our own"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":423.116,"endTime":431.872,"body":"scientific advisory and we also have a,but the only share, the only holder of, of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":431.882,"endTime":433.642,"body":"ZBT is the university of Duisburg Essen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":434.001,"endTime":434.421,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":434.512,"endTime":438.382,"body":"Basti: they also have a say in, inus, but uh, mostly we are free to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":438.442,"endTime":439.702,"body":"do kind of do what we want to do."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":440.281,"endTime":440.521,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":440.521,"endTime":441.121,"body":"Interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":441.631,"endTime":448.76,"body":"So covering the whole hydrogenvalue chain pipes production, but"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":448.76,"endTime":454.46,"body":"also the application fuel cells andammonia, we talked earlier about"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":455.141,"endTime":455.741,"body":"Basti: yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":455.746,"endTime":458.501,"body":"The, the, so the whole andmore, more on the engineering"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":458.75,"endTime":459.02,"body":"Kevin: Hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":459.407,"endTime":462.1,"body":"Basti: we are, we are alittle bit of outliers in our,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":462.214,"endTime":462.294,"body":"Kevin: Hmm"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":462.514,"endTime":465.106,"body":"Basti: sense that we are focused"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":465.24,"endTime":465.66,"body":"Kevin: mm-hmm"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":465.676,"endTime":471.526,"body":"Basti: typical, let's put it like that,research questions, but also we, always"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":471.556,"endTime":475.036,"body":"try to think our stuff with the real"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":475.32,"endTime":475.44,"body":"Kevin: hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":476.116,"endTime":476.626,"body":"Basti: in mind."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":477.003,"endTime":477.243,"body":"Miriam: yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":477.243,"endTime":482.762,"body":"What I, this is what I really like, whyI work at the ZBT, that we do not just"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":482.762,"endTime":488.732,"body":"look at one scientific question, we havedifferent, uh, tasks and, uh, look at the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":488.732,"endTime":494.713,"body":"whole hydrogen value chain, regarding the,scientific part and the engineering part."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":495.054,"endTime":495.234,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":495.234,"endTime":500.484,"body":"Also, it's a more applied research asyou said, that uh, if you have always"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":500.484,"endTime":506.25,"body":"some kind of in industry partner,then it's not just a basic research."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":506.25,"endTime":510.12,"body":"I mean, that's also very important, butit's just a different type of research."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":510.442,"endTime":510.732,"body":"Basti: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":510.992,"endTime":513.047,"body":"And that can also bea blessing and a curse"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":513.086,"endTime":513.296,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":513.617,"endTime":518.461,"body":"Basti: all things can be because in theend a lot, a lot of questions are born."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":518.463,"endTime":519.481,"body":"Born by money."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":519.811,"endTime":522.571,"body":"And so you have to thinkabout the whole stuff."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":522.571,"endTime":525.721,"body":"And especially when we maybe latertalk a little bit about hydrogen even."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":525.781,"endTime":530.401,"body":"You have always to talk about, uh,the money part in, in, in stuff and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":530.401,"endTime":534.451,"body":"can cannot only do the research forthe, for the fun of the researchers,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":534.565,"endTime":534.985,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":535.021,"endTime":536.911,"body":"Basti: uh, if, if youwant to put it like that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":537.385,"endTime":537.715,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":537.781,"endTime":541.201,"body":"Basti: But of course it's alsoimportant and interesting to know"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":541.201,"endTime":545.091,"body":"what the industry is interestedin and what they struggle with or,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":545.5,"endTime":545.58,"body":"Kevin: Hmm,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":546.211,"endTime":549.691,"body":"Basti: where we can then, then helpthem and get their insights from the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":549.931,"endTime":551.821,"body":"then actual application and so on."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":552.033,"endTime":552.243,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":552.243,"endTime":553.563,"body":"Also further data."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":554.013,"endTime":559.023,"body":"Then let's, uh, come to the topicof this episode, the electrolysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":559.443,"endTime":566.134,"body":"Um, we had some, uh, episodes aboutelectrolysis before, but let's still, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":566.164,"endTime":571.534,"body":"recap, uh, what is, water electrolysisand why do we need that at the moment?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":571.881,"endTime":574.17,"body":"Basti: I think most, most of thepeople who are listening here"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":574.17,"endTime":575.541,"body":"are, had it in their school."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":575.901,"endTime":581.811,"body":"The, the, the simplest idea is that youput two rods of different materials inside"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":581.811,"endTime":587.031,"body":"of water, apply current, and then on theone side, you, you produce your hydrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":587.031,"endTime":589.131,"body":"On the other side, youproduce your oxygen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":589.371,"endTime":592.191,"body":"So H2O is then H two, and O2."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":592.671,"endTime":595.071,"body":"Uh, I, I think that's common knowledge at"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":595.125,"endTime":595.425,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":595.641,"endTime":601.944,"body":"Basti: here, um, if you want to do itat scale and in larger areas and more"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":601.944,"endTime":608.043,"body":"efficient, then you have to engineerthe boundaries of your, of your catalyst"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":608.043,"endTime":610.113,"body":"phases or of your electrodes where."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":610.488,"endTime":614.598,"body":"Where your actual magic happens, but thenyou also make to have, to make sure that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":614.598,"endTime":617.508,"body":"your media gets to, to, to, to where they"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":617.692,"endTime":618.112,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":618.888,"endTime":623.718,"body":"Basti: So in a lot of senses, um, ifwe talk about electrolysis, we, we"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":623.718,"endTime":629.748,"body":"talk about the splitting of the waterat the cathode to produce the hydrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":629.748,"endTime":632.838,"body":"and at the anode to produce the oxygen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":633.708,"endTime":639.474,"body":"And some shape or form, there'san ions conducting media between"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":639.474,"endTime":644.444,"body":"them, which electrically isolatesthe two reactions from each other."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":644.751,"endTime":647.931,"body":"but then the ions can travel fromthe one side to the other side"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":647.931,"endTime":649.461,"body":"and perform the other reaction."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":649.5,"endTime":649.92,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":650.121,"endTime":653.751,"body":"Basti: it, I I, I think it's quitemy, in my head, it's not so easy"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":653.751,"endTime":655.341,"body":"to explain without any pictures."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":655.341,"endTime":655.766,"body":"I, I,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":655.905,"endTime":655.965,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":656.091,"endTime":658.071,"body":"Basti: I just realized, uh."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":658.365,"endTime":658.515,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":658.515,"endTime":662.031,"body":"But I think for thelistener it should be clear."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":662.459,"endTime":670.099,"body":"this iron conducting separation part isalso what is, uh, special about the AEM."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":670.829,"endTime":675.779,"body":"But, um, to quickly also recap, um,when we're talking about this whole"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":676.059,"endTime":682.529,"body":"electrolysis, we would like to useideally, um, renewable energy to."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":682.859,"endTime":688.019,"body":"Have the hydrogen as a storage forrenewable energy and then use that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":688.019,"endTime":693.509,"body":"to e either transport it or storeit and then later use it again."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":693.869,"endTime":701.969,"body":"And this is why Germany and also othercountries are now trying to build up"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":701.969,"endTime":704.168,"body":"this whole hydrogen, economy actually."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":704.554,"endTime":709.624,"body":"that we need the electrolysis in the,the most efficient form because as"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":709.624,"endTime":713.824,"body":"you said earlier, we also have tolook at the money and have to see"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":713.824,"endTime":715.894,"body":"that these projects become profitable."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":715.894,"endTime":721.204,"body":"And the more efficient theelectrolyzers, the faster they can"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":721.204,"endTime":722.734,"body":"get their return on investment."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":723.694,"endTime":725.014,"body":"And um, yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":725.074,"endTime":727.934,"body":"In this episode, we wouldlike to talk about AEM."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":728.254,"endTime":734.584,"body":"So Miriam, what is special about thiscompared to other electrolysis techniques?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":735.157,"endTime":735.457,"body":"Miriam: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":735.757,"endTime":741.037,"body":"Um, the AEM water electrolysis isquite interesting because it can,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":741.067,"endTime":747.337,"body":"uh, combine the advantages of thecurrently two established technologies."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":748.057,"endTime":753.206,"body":"Um, on the one hand we have the classicaltypical alkaline water electrolysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":753.738,"endTime":757.308,"body":"which has the advantagethat we can use, uh, yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":757.308,"endTime":760.248,"body":"Cheap materials in thealkaline conditions."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":761.028,"endTime":765.288,"body":"on the other hand we have the PEMwater electrolysis, so the proton"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":765.288,"endTime":772.098,"body":"exchange membrane electrolysis, whichhas a compact membrane based design."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":772.818,"endTime":777.228,"body":"And because of that it canoperate very, um, efficiently."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":777.673,"endTime":784.562,"body":"But, it often relies on expensiveprecious  metals like platinum and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":784.562,"endTime":786.902,"body":"iridium on the anode side, for example."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":787.462,"endTime":791.762,"body":"And now the AEM can yeah,combine the best of both words."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":791.762,"endTime":796.242,"body":"It uses, uh, also a membrane and thiskind of system will use, uh, anionen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":796.622,"endTime":798.782,"body":"exchange membrane as Bastian already."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":798.915,"endTime":799.365,"body":"said."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":799.425,"endTime":804.85,"body":"And, yeah, so this system is closerto the PEM water electrolysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":805.24,"endTime":808.33,"body":"But it still operatesin alkaline conditions."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":808.63,"endTime":813.791,"body":"So with that, we are able to use, cheapmaterials like nickel-based materials"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":813.851,"endTime":816.071,"body":"and replace the precious metals."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":816.207,"endTime":822.243,"body":"and yeah, I think, or in my mind thismakes the technology very promising"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":822.29,"endTime":822.71,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":822.963,"endTime":826.173,"body":"Miriam: to, uh, because we want toscale the hydrogen production and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":826.173,"endTime":830.943,"body":"therefore the cost and the resourceavailability is, um, very important."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":831.356,"endTime":831.596,"body":"Basti: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":831.656,"endTime":837.611,"body":"And, and what's also interesting isthat, right now, if one is interested"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":837.611,"endTime":841.061,"body":"in the whole electrolysis world, there'sa lot of talk about AEM electrolysis"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":841.061,"endTime":846.38,"body":"because it's, a quite young technologyin the sense because the membranes"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":846.38,"endTime":847.609,"body":"were the bottleneck in the past."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":847.765,"endTime":847.985,"body":"Kevin: Why?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":848.562,"endTime":850.122,"body":"Basti: that's a polymerchemistry question."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":850.122,"endTime":850.572,"body":"They, they"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":850.621,"endTime":850.701,"body":"Kevin: Hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":851.112,"endTime":851.922,"body":"Basti: very, very fast."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":852.522,"endTime":857.232,"body":"Apparently it's very hard to havean iron conducting material that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":857.232,"endTime":862.992,"body":"doesn't degrade under the conditionsof one molar kh to page page pH 14."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":863.982,"endTime":864.882,"body":"the first."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":865.097,"endTime":869.867,"body":"Commercially available stable materialsare like four or five years old"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":869.941,"endTime":870.061,"body":"Kevin: Hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":870.137,"endTime":870.857,"body":"Basti: only."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":871.051,"endTime":871.341,"body":"Kevin: Okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":871.577,"endTime":876.167,"body":"Basti: and that, and that broughtlike the whole, um, the whole uprising"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":876.17,"endTime":881.596,"body":"of the AEM electrolysis part becausethe catalysts were also known in a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":881.626,"endTime":886.066,"body":"sense, because you could use them in,materials, but you couldn't combine them."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":886.996,"endTime":888.826,"body":"because a membrane then would just die"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":889.135,"endTime":889.555,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":889.576,"endTime":892.591,"body":"Basti: under, under this, especiallyif you have efficient catalysts."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":893.341,"endTime":897.211,"body":"And, and right now there are a lotof, or not a lot, but some companies"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":897.211,"endTime":898.501,"body":"who are building up these membranes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":898.501,"endTime":903.141,"body":"And it's also not so, monopolistic,like in the, in the PEM world where"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":903.141,"endTime":905.931,"body":"it's basically just Nafion P flu."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":906.671,"endTime":911.915,"body":"PFAS uh, which is, which iscommonly known and, and stable."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":912.365,"endTime":914.735,"body":"Uh, and it's good forthe protein conducting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":915.455,"endTime":920.135,"body":"And something to have something like thatin the AEM world is, we are not there"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":920.135,"endTime":923.735,"body":"yet, but there are companies who areworking on exactly that to, to have really"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":923.735,"endTime":925.325,"body":"stable and iron conducting materials."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":925.964,"endTime":931.244,"body":"Kevin: So for AEM, they'renot these, uh, Nafion type and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":931.244,"endTime":933.584,"body":"they're not, uh, pfas containing."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":933.704,"endTime":938.684,"body":"I think that's also a big advantagebecause this, uh, PFAS materials,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":938.684,"endTime":941.594,"body":"they're also like blessingand a curse at the same time."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":942.01,"endTime":942.3,"body":"Basti: yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":942.494,"endTime":948.314,"body":"Kevin: very stable and do well what theydo, but especially the production of them"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":948.314,"endTime":950.684,"body":"comes with, uh, huge environmental risks."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":951.014,"endTime":951.143,"body":"Miriam: Yep."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":951.143,"endTime":951.303,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":951.436,"endTime":955.546,"body":"Basti: And that's like one of the thingswhy the a one of the several things"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":955.546,"endTime":957.526,"body":"why am can be, can be interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":958.371,"endTime":963.531,"body":"what always if, one ask what'sthe problem with a EM, then a lot"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":963.531,"endTime":965.931,"body":"of people have exactly that inmind that the membrane are not"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":966.305,"endTime":966.725,"body":"Kevin: mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":966.741,"endTime":969.411,"body":"Basti: which shifted in thelast two or three years."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":969.705,"endTime":970.125,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":970.41,"endTime":972.27,"body":"What are the membranes made out of?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":972.629,"endTime":976.499,"body":"Basti: I think it's also a lot of timesit's a high, some hydro calm backbone."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":976.499,"endTime":983.279,"body":"And then, uh, that's not my, II would have to really guess."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":983.324,"endTime":986.699,"body":"I, I can kinda identifyit, but I can't really"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":986.763,"endTime":987.053,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":987.278,"endTime":987.518,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":988.04,"endTime":989.39,"body":"Basti: because we don't do the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":989.429,"endTime":989.759,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":990.14,"endTime":992.96,"body":"Basti: research, so it's like, let's, we,we do everything in the aEM world but we"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":992.96,"endTime":994.784,"body":"don't do, uh, organic polymer chemistry"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":994.834,"endTime":995.254,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":995.63,"endTime":997.43,"body":"Basti: stuff because Iapparently that's hard."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":998.24,"endTime":1000.01,"body":"And, um, we, we just"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1000.094,"endTime":1000.514,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1000.52,"endTime":1003.01,"body":"Basti: So we have companiesthat come to us and want to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1003.01,"endTime":1005.2,"body":"test or tested their membranes,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1006.008,"endTime":1006.218,"body":"Kevin: Okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1006.218,"endTime":1009.398,"body":"So, but it is a polymeric membrane."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1009.398,"endTime":1014.408,"body":"It's not like a, for example, withthe SOE electrolysis, it's not"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1014.408,"endTime":1016.808,"body":"like a c ceramic, it's a polymer."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1017.114,"endTime":1017.924,"body":"Basti: It's a polymer."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1018.998,"endTime":1025.018,"body":"Kevin: And then to get the whole system towork similar to the PEM electrolysis, you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1025.018,"endTime":1030.268,"body":"need to coat the membrane with an activematerial, which contains the catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1030.925,"endTime":1035.495,"body":"Or how is this, uh, theelectrolysis cell built for AEM."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1036.046,"endTime":1039.496,"body":"Miriam: This is one opportunityfor the fabrication methods."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1039.556,"endTime":1046.635,"body":"In our case, we deposit the catalyst layerdirectly on the substrate because, yeah,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1046.635,"endTime":1050.985,"body":"the am membranes are difficult to handle,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1051.171,"endTime":1051.411,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1051.615,"endTime":1055.305,"body":"Miriam: not common that, uh, we dothe CCM catalyst coated membrane"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1055.305,"endTime":1060.555,"body":"fabrication like in the PEMelectrolysis, and the AEM electrolysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1060.957,"endTime":1070.018,"body":"And, we do not see the need that we,increase the anionic conductivity,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1070.17,"endTime":1070.37,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1070.618,"endTime":1075.988,"body":"Miriam: uh, in this case because, um,during the AEM electrolysis we still use"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1075.988,"endTime":1083.658,"body":"one molar KOH solution and our system andto this increases the, uh, connectivity"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1083.999,"endTime":1088.917,"body":"There is no need to coat thecatalyst directly on the membrane."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1088.917,"endTime":1094.895,"body":"It's also possible, um, havethe layer on the PTL and get"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1094.955,"endTime":1097.634,"body":"Yeah, quite high performance."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1097.895,"endTime":1098.778,"body":"Kevin: What What is PTL?."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1100.517,"endTime":1103.577,"body":"Miriam: In this case, it'sa, a porous transport layer."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1104.957,"endTime":1109.877,"body":"for our porous transport layer, weuse like, uh, in the PEM systems, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1109.877,"endTime":1113.507,"body":"there often use titanium non-wovens."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1113.717,"endTime":1119.537,"body":"And in this case we use a porous nickelor porous stainless steel non-woven"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1120.377,"endTime":1122.507,"body":"our substrate for our catalyst layer."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1122.978,"endTime":1123.248,"body":"Kevin: hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1123.398,"endTime":1123.818,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1123.878,"endTime":1128.798,"body":"So you have the membrane in themiddle, and then you have this"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1128.828,"endTime":1132.368,"body":"porous transport layer on both sides."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1132.368,"endTime":1136.688,"body":"And then on each of thosesides, you have then the anode"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1136.688,"endTime":1138.878,"body":"and cathode catalyst material."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1139.73,"endTime":1141.65,"body":"Basti: of course, is stillsitting at the membrane,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1142.064,"endTime":1142.454,"body":"Kevin: yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1142.64,"endTime":1145.195,"body":"Basti: so it's membrane catalyst,and then this post transport layer."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1145.7,"endTime":1148.46,"body":"so it, it is like doing it directly on the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1148.564,"endTime":1148.984,"body":"Kevin: mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1149.33,"endTime":1151.82,"body":"Basti: and the catalyst needto be in contact, of course."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1151.91,"endTime":1155.6,"body":"But in the, in the PEM world, youreally need to make sure that you have"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1156.02,"endTime":1160.7,"body":"ionic pathways from, your membraneto your active center centers."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1161.09,"endTime":1164.49,"body":"Uh, in the AEM world, it's not so bigof an issue, as Miriam already told,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1164.49,"endTime":1169.83,"body":"as there's always ionic conductivitydue to the, uh, KOH that's abundantly,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1170.25,"endTime":1172.53,"body":"uh, everywhere in, in our electrolysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1172.92,"endTime":1177.18,"body":"Uh, and then it's a little bit easierto, so we do a lot of spray coating,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1177.18,"endTime":1178.83,"body":"which is a quite slow process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1178.83,"endTime":1183.9,"body":"And if you do slow processes onpolymers that like to change their,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1183.996,"endTime":1187.813,"body":"structure during the coating, thenthey shrivel up, for example, and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1187.813,"endTime":1189.403,"body":"then you get inner homogeneous layers."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1189.613,"endTime":1193.273,"body":"And oftentimes it's better to,to, to sacrifice a little bit of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1193.363,"endTime":1195.373,"body":"contact from catalyst to membrane"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1195.967,"endTime":1195.977,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1196.063,"endTime":1198.763,"body":"Basti: more homogeneousdeposited on the PTL side."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1199.282,"endTime":1199.572,"body":"Kevin: Okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1199.618,"endTime":1203.053,"body":"Basti: it's still membrane then theboth catalyst layers and then the PTL."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1204.412,"endTime":1208.462,"body":"Kevin: So I guess these arealready some, um, challenges for"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1208.462,"endTime":1213.497,"body":"AM that you just mentioned, the,um, membrane itself, but also the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1213.527,"endTime":1217.487,"body":"fabrication of the electrolysis cell."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1218.117,"endTime":1225.574,"body":"Basically that's, um, how to get thecatalyst perfectly distributed on the PTL."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1226.195,"endTime":1226.485,"body":"Basti: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1226.795,"endTime":1229.535,"body":"Kevin: What other challengesdo you see still for AEM?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1229.988,"endTime":1230.588,"body":"Quick break."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1230.794,"endTime":1232.394,"body":"First of all, thank you for tuning in."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1232.684,"endTime":1233.914,"body":"This really means a lot to me."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1234.314,"endTime":1236.414,"body":"I would like to ask asmall favor from you."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1236.424,"endTime":1241.099,"body":"It would really help if you couldfollow Innovate and React on"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1241.129,"endTime":1242.629,"body":"whatever platform you're listening."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1243.085,"endTime":1247.241,"body":"This helps to reach more people and spreadthe amazing research of my guests further."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1247.619,"endTime":1248.679,"body":"Thank you so much for your time."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1249.279,"endTime":1250.139,"body":"Back to the episode"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1250.573,"endTime":1251.413,"body":"Basti: That's a big one."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1251.443,"endTime":1254.298,"body":"So the idea to, to, to think, okay, we."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1255.073,"endTime":1258.583,"body":"Which is also nice for us as researchers,and especially if you want to do"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1258.583,"endTime":1261.553,"body":"your PhD and that kind of stuff,because you can find so many different"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1261.553,"endTime":1263.353,"body":"catalytic active, active materials."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1263.713,"endTime":1267.763,"body":"But then to think about how we actuallyget them to where we want them to be,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1267.763,"endTime":1272.413,"body":"to do what we want them to do, uh, it'softentimes a little bit more challenging."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1272.803,"endTime":1277.153,"body":"Uh, you can do your, your baseelectrochemistry, uh, on rotating"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1277.153,"endTime":1280.783,"body":"disc electrodes where you have areduced simple system where you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1280.783,"endTime":1284.448,"body":"only look at your catalyst, but it'snot so easy to then get it close to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1284.448,"endTime":1286.158,"body":"the actual membrane in your cell."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1286.172,"endTime":1286.392,"body":"Kevin: Hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1286.608,"endTime":1288.817,"body":"Basti: for example, if youhave materials that are."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1289.627,"endTime":1294.217,"body":"Um, based on, on powders, then you mayhave to make sure if you do some wet"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1294.217,"endTime":1298.927,"body":"coating, that your powder dispersion isreally homogeneous, that it is stable,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1299.137,"endTime":1302.647,"body":"that you can then spray coat it or spraycoat it for industry applications to,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1302.677,"endTime":1308.467,"body":"to slow to, to, to have it with slot diecoating or duct blading, for example, or"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1308.467,"endTime":1310.237,"body":"roll to roll printing, stuff like that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1310.251,"endTime":1310.471,"body":"Kevin: Hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1310.597,"endTime":1311.917,"body":"Basti: you need special inks."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1312.127,"endTime":1316.417,"body":"Your catalyst needs to be able tostay in, in dispersion long enough."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1316.777,"endTime":1321.712,"body":"Uh, and then you have to engineer allthis kind of different, parameters"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1321.726,"endTime":1322.146,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1322.312,"endTime":1325.632,"body":"Basti: get your porous,but not too porous."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1325.762,"endTime":1327.502,"body":"Uh, uh, catalyst layer"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1328.006,"endTime":1331.756,"body":"Kevin: Okay, so that sounds likethere's still a lot of potential in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1332.206,"endTime":1337.516,"body":"many directions for AEM to improveon because it's not that old compared"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1337.516,"endTime":1339.256,"body":"to other electrolysis techniques."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1339.337,"endTime":1342.757,"body":"Basti: Yeah, And, and, andespecially for, for, for us who are"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1342.757,"endTime":1344.617,"body":"sitting again between the chairs"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1344.686,"endTime":1344.956,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1344.977,"endTime":1349.779,"body":"Basti: do, to, to take a materialand not only look at the intrinsic"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1349.779,"endTime":1354.069,"body":"activity, to also how we get itinto the cell, how we surface area."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1354.069,"endTime":1354.999,"body":"We, we can get there."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1355.329,"endTime":1360.335,"body":"And then there are other techniqueslike, like, uh, GG gno static deposition"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1360.365,"endTime":1365.405,"body":"or, or what we will later talk alittle bit more, I think about that,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1365.465,"endTime":1370.175,"body":"that bypass some manufacturing steps,for example, which, why we think that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1370.475,"endTime":1371.825,"body":"they are oftentimes interesting for us"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1371.899,"endTime":1372.319,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1372.425,"endTime":1375.982,"body":"Basti: because the, the more stepsyou, you have the, more errors"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1375.982,"endTime":1377.332,"body":"can, can find their way into it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1377.726,"endTime":1378.146,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1378.502,"endTime":1382.132,"body":"Basti: so it's not only finding amaterial, it's also having a material"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1382.132,"endTime":1384.952,"body":"that is, uh, capable of handling"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1385.126,"endTime":1385.486,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1385.732,"endTime":1387.412,"body":"Basti: or that we, we arecapable of handling it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1387.526,"endTime":1388.396,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, definitely."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1388.586,"endTime":1391.676,"body":"that's also what I had in my research."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1391.676,"endTime":1398.516,"body":"I did catalysis for amine synthesis andthere was also always, uh, a thing to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1398.516,"endTime":1403.256,"body":"think about that you can have a greatcatalyst, but in the end, if it doesn't"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1403.256,"endTime":1409.316,"body":"have a chance to go to a pilot plantor something to actually work in a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1409.976,"endTime":1416.786,"body":"larger setup, then your flask basicallythen, um, yeah, it's a nice catalyst,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1416.786,"endTime":1419.606,"body":"but the application might not happen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1420.836,"endTime":1424.076,"body":"And I think that's, uh, very similarhere, that you can have a great"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1424.076,"endTime":1428.666,"body":"catalyst, but when you can notmanufacture some electrolysis cells"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1428.666,"endTime":1433.003,"body":"out of it and later even on scale,then yeah, it's a bit far out."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1433.669,"endTime":1433.849,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1434.962,"endTime":1436.942,"body":"Miriam: Especially because of the ionomer."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1436.942,"endTime":1440.512,"body":"This is another, um, challengein the a m electrolysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1440.512,"endTime":1447.096,"body":"So the adhesion of the am ionomeris, yeah, less than the PEM ionomer,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1447.452,"endTime":1447.872,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1448.116,"endTime":1450.126,"body":"Miriam: and that's why, um,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1450.207,"endTime":1451.104,"body":"Kevin: The adhesion to what?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1451.161,"endTime":1455.877,"body":"Miriam: The adhesion are to thecatalyst and the catalyst layer."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1456.433,"endTime":1456.723,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1456.723,"endTime":1456.923,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1457.392,"endTime":1461.861,"body":"Basti: so basically we have the, ionconducting, uh, part of the membrane."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1461.861,"endTime":1464.501,"body":"It's also part of thedispersion that we spray code."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1464.741,"endTime":1465.396,"body":"Then you have like this."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1466.346,"endTime":1471.056,"body":"This system of catalyst materialsand uh, also conducting ionomer."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1471.416,"endTime":1475.706,"body":"But if these ionomers, they, they acta little bit of a binder and glue your,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1475.706,"endTime":1477.926,"body":"your catalyst on your PTL, for example, or"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1478.455,"endTime":1478.535,"body":"Kevin: Hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1478.535,"endTime":1478.895,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1479.396,"endTime":1484.31,"body":"Basti: But if they degrade, then it alittle bit more prone that then your"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1484.34,"endTime":1486.2,"body":"catalyst really moves out of the system"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1486.279,"endTime":1486.499,"body":"Kevin: No."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1486.569,"endTime":1486.859,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1486.889,"endTime":1487.179,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1487.4,"endTime":1493.31,"body":"Basti: it's, and, and, and apparently theyare, it shouldn't be the same ionomer for"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1493.31,"endTime":1495.98,"body":"the catalyst layer than for the membrane."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1496.1,"endTime":1500.236,"body":"As people find out that there aredifferent, surrounding conditions that,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1500.266,"endTime":1502.711,"body":"that govern more or less degradation."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1502.73,"endTime":1503.15,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1503.176,"endTime":1510.016,"body":"Basti: that's also, it's not too easy atthe moment, even if you have a stable I"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1510.016,"endTime":1515.158,"body":"ionomer for, for, the alkaline world tomanufacture it though that it's even more"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1515.158,"endTime":1519.748,"body":"stable for the catalyst world is alsoanother challenge in innovative itself."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1520.742,"endTime":1520.962,"body":"Kevin: No."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1521.068,"endTime":1521.158,"body":"Basti: are"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1521.322,"endTime":1521.562,"body":"Kevin: Interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1521.638,"endTime":1522.898,"body":"Basti: on the market right now."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1523.517,"endTime":1526.937,"body":"there are some that are claimed to be,oh, it's only for the catalyst layer, but"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1526.937,"endTime":1529.427,"body":"they, it's far less than who just do the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1529.921,"endTime":1530.341,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1530.915,"endTime":1531.395,"body":"Miriam: Yes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1531.485,"endTime":1536.701,"body":"And that's why we are looking,um, other fabrication approaches"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1536.701,"endTime":1542.641,"body":"and that's why we now, uh, use thedeposition based approach, um, which"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1542.641,"endTime":1548.491,"body":"has the advantage that we can directlydeposit the catalyst on the PTL."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1549.051,"endTime":1553.363,"body":"yeah, this is for the industry ofcourse, very attractive because it's,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1553.382,"endTime":1556.262,"body":"simple and potentially scalable."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1556.758,"endTime":1556.818,"body":"Basti: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1556.818,"endTime":1559.158,"body":"So that, that's also whatwe oftentimes want to do."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1559.158,"endTime":1560.028,"body":"We want to do simple"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1560.272,"endTime":1560.562,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1560.868,"endTime":1562.368,"body":"Basti: because we are simple engineers."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1562.578,"endTime":1566.208,"body":"We just want, we don't want tohave like eight citizen steps"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1566.508,"endTime":1568.068,"body":"and then you have coated your."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1568.228,"endTime":1574.872,"body":"CF nanotubes with I don't know what forspherical, uh, stuff, is interesting"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1574.872,"endTime":1576.372,"body":"and nice to see that it works."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1576.372,"endTime":1581.631,"body":"But, you mentioned, Kevin, then noone will ever maybe, uh, build an"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1581.631,"endTime":1583.851,"body":"application around it because it can like,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1583.92,"endTime":1584.21,"body":"Kevin: Yeah,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1584.271,"endTime":1585.801,"body":"Basti: like 0.2 grams in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1586.68,"endTime":1587.37,"body":"Kevin: yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1587.541,"endTime":1589.671,"body":"Basti: it breaks assoon as it sees the sun."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1589.671,"endTime":1591.486,"body":"Nah, then it's kind of bit"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1591.89,"endTime":1592.31,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1593.13,"endTime":1595.27,"body":"So what materials are you looking at?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1595.836,"endTime":1599.061,"body":"Miriam: we are looking on nickel."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1599.061,"endTime":1600.501,"body":"So nickel is one of the most."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1601.341,"endTime":1603.741,"body":"Relevant and important elements,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1603.942,"endTime":1604.222,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1604.371,"endTime":1605.181,"body":"Miriam: system."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1606.231,"endTime":1612.226,"body":"And people often combine nickel,for example, they combine nickel"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1612.226,"endTime":1616.306,"body":"with iron because iron can furtherimprove the oxygen evolution"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1616.306,"endTime":1618.767,"body":"reaction to produce, oxygen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1618.782,"endTime":1624.99,"body":"For example, nickel iron hydroxides oruh, nickel iron layered double hydroxides"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1625.41,"endTime":1631.74,"body":"are very attractive at the moment and areoften considered as the benchmark material"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1631.83,"endTime":1633.99,"body":"for the oxygen revolution reaction."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1634.34,"endTime":1638.81,"body":"And another interestingmaterial is also, um, sulfur."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1638.81,"endTime":1644.904,"body":"So with sulfur, we can also change thecomposition a little bit and, yeah,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1644.904,"endTime":1651.282,"body":"improve, for example, the connectivityand, the reaction on the surface."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1651.797,"endTime":1652.035,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1652.42,"endTime":1658.367,"body":"So the, nickel sulfur and nickeliron are typical catalysts."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1658.697,"endTime":1664.757,"body":"Um, what parameters are you thenoptimizing for when you compare"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1664.757,"endTime":1667.907,"body":"different catalysts and youscreen for different materials?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1668.11,"endTime":1670.45,"body":"Miriam: Mostly we look at, um, the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1670.562,"endTime":1670.682,"body":"Kevin: I,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1670.84,"endTime":1677.941,"body":"Miriam: distribution of, um,Nic and also sulfur, and how"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1677.941,"endTime":1680.957,"body":"homogeneous the catalyst layer"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1681.018,"endTime":1681.438,"body":"Kevin: mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1681.737,"endTime":1682.937,"body":"Miriam: on the surface."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1683.102,"endTime":1687.992,"body":"And mostly, yeah, we do theelectrolysis test and look at"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1688.142,"endTime":1690.482,"body":"the activity and the stability."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1691.352,"endTime":1694.387,"body":"our um, measurements,electrochemical measurements,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1694.419,"endTime":1694.699,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1694.935,"endTime":1695.145,"body":"Basti: Uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1695.145,"endTime":1700.483,"body":"that's, that's also, if one doesjust in, in, in a big asterisk, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1700.513,"endTime":1704.743,"body":"catalyst research on a, on a, on arotating disc electrodes, then you,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1704.743,"endTime":1710.503,"body":"you do like your, your LSVs and yourCVS to, uh, get something for, for"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1710.503,"endTime":1713.233,"body":"the, for the, um, intrinsic activity."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1713.233,"endTime":1717.283,"body":"You can calculate your tar slopes,which gives tell you a little"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1717.283,"endTime":1721.215,"body":"bit of how, yeah, how active I,I try to not use the word active."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1721.635,"endTime":1725.338,"body":"Uh, how, how much your catalystreally wants to do what it needs to."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1725.343,"endTime":1726.508,"body":"Now it's not, nah, I know."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1726.77,"endTime":1727.09,"body":"Miriam: density."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1728.128,"endTime":1732.238,"body":"Basti: Yeah, because Act, I, Idon't like the word activity because"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1732.238,"endTime":1737.368,"body":"activity gets awesome oftentimes, um,jumbled together with other words."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1737.368,"endTime":1738.937,"body":"I think it's not accurate enough."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1739.444,"endTime":1743.404,"body":"always think about it like you have yourcatalytic material, which wants to do"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1743.404,"endTime":1748.264,"body":"the reaction as a part of itself, andsome materials want to do more of it"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1748.264,"endTime":1752.734,"body":"and, and want to do better because Idon't know, they have the, edges are so"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1752.853,"endTime":1753.273,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1753.274,"endTime":1757.084,"body":"Basti: the nice materials and thenthe whole complicated chemistry stuff."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1757.084,"endTime":1760.474,"body":"And the other side is how much of thematerial is actually part of the reaction."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1760.834,"endTime":1761.704,"body":"So, um,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1761.758,"endTime":1761.768,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1761.974,"endTime":1765.934,"body":"Basti: in a, in a, in a reduced system,like in rotating disc electrode is quite"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1765.934,"endTime":1770.63,"body":"easy to find out how much, catalyst isactually, uh, part of the reaction we call"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1770.63,"endTime":1772.55,"body":"it in the electrochemical surface area."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1772.94,"endTime":1776.69,"body":"Um, for most materials,that's easier to find out."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1776.69,"endTime":1780.26,"body":"There are methods for some materialslike Miriam mentioned this nickel"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1780.26,"endTime":1781.85,"body":"iron layer, double hydroxide."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1781.85,"endTime":1782.99,"body":"It's not so easy."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1783.35,"endTime":1788.78,"body":"Because they are, for somemethods, you only, need to get"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1788.78,"endTime":1790.97,"body":"to a certain amount of potential."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1790.97,"endTime":1794.011,"body":"And if you don't go there,they're not conductive."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1794.011,"endTime":1798.031,"body":"But you need to be below thatpotential at some points to calculate"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1798.031,"endTime":1800.011,"body":"the electrochemical service area."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1800.281,"endTime":1802.711,"body":"So they are problems with that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1802.711,"endTime":1808.303,"body":"And now we come in and take our catalystlayer, and put it in a real operating"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1808.577,"endTime":1808.797,"body":"Kevin: Mm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1808.843,"endTime":1813.676,"body":"Basti: also have the influences of theother electrode that we can't ignore."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1813.856,"endTime":1816.976,"body":"And we also have the influence ofthe membrane and the interfaces."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1817.366,"endTime":1821.273,"body":"Uh, and then it gets harder todistinguish, uh, for what we"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1821.273,"endTime":1822.563,"body":"are actually optimizing for."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1822.563,"endTime":1827.333,"body":"Of course, we're optimizing for mostcurrent density at a certain potential,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1827.373,"endTime":1829.133,"body":"for the least amount of materials at"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1829.267,"endTime":1829.687,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1830.543,"endTime":1831.623,"body":"Basti: But, um."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1832.043,"endTime":1835.113,"body":"I mean, that's a typical engineeringquestion, in the end that oftentimes"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1835.113,"endTime":1840.573,"body":"it's hard to, to really see that in,in real operating conditions because"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1840.573,"endTime":1843.813,"body":"every, we, we only measure the, thecurrent density of the whole system."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1844.493,"endTime":1845.028,"body":"Kevin: Ah, okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1845.028,"endTime":1847.308,"body":"So you're not looking at the cell level."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1847.308,"endTime":1849.433,"body":"You are actually lookingat the stack already."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1849.604,"endTime":1852.249,"body":"Basti: the, no, no, it's celllevel, but also the cell is"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1852.249,"endTime":1856.839,"body":"still part, the cell also, uh,consists of nano another electrode."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1856.993,"endTime":1857.073,"body":"Kevin: Hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1857.303,"endTime":1857.593,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1857.739,"endTime":1858.699,"body":"Basti: if you want to, if"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1858.783,"endTime":1859.073,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1859.209,"endTime":1863.649,"body":"Basti: to look at our anode andwe try to keep our cathode the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1863.649,"endTime":1868.201,"body":"same always, um, which is sensibleto do, we still measure it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1868.365,"endTime":1868.485,"body":"Kevin: Hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1868.485,"endTime":1868.845,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1868.861,"endTime":1871.381,"body":"Basti: there are changes there forsome reason, we still measure them."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1871.381,"endTime":1874.951,"body":"And then you have to distinguish thelosses of the, of the one electrode"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1875.005,"endTime":1875.425,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1875.461,"endTime":1878.971,"body":"Basti: electrode and ofinterfaces and the membrane."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1878.971,"endTime":1879.271,"body":"So."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1879.676,"endTime":1884.341,"body":"You, you, you, you reduce thepossibilities of what one could, uh, do,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1884.341,"endTime":1888.331,"body":"and then, then you need to do some tricksto maybe get the same information out"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1888.345,"endTime":1888.765,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1889.347,"endTime":1896.187,"body":"And, um, you mentioned, uh, alsothat you used to combine nickel with"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1896.187,"endTime":1901.387,"body":"other elements to, in the end, useless of the active material, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1902.347,"endTime":1905.677,"body":"Or how, why do you,uh, combine the nickel?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1906.005,"endTime":1912.269,"body":"Miriam: yeah, so Nickel is active,but nickel can be more active in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1912.557,"endTime":1914.897,"body":"combination with, for example, sulfur."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1915.347,"endTime":1921.891,"body":"And sulfur is interesting because inour projects, together with, uh, FAM,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1922.011,"endTime":1928.981,"body":"for example, in Schw\u00e4bisch Gem\u00fcnd, wehad a project where we did nickel sulfur"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1929.971,"endTime":1932.225,"body":"catalyst layer by electrode position."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1932.347,"endTime":1937.662,"body":"And, this was interesting because we,uh, found out that nickel sulfur can"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1937.662,"endTime":1941.592,"body":"influence the electronic structure,for example, and the connectivity."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1942.277,"endTime":1950.077,"body":"And, um, nickel sulfur is able to undergooxidation and to therefore increase"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1950.257,"endTime":1953.737,"body":"hydroxide layer layers on the surface."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1954.187,"endTime":1961.24,"body":"So in this case, it's, it improvesthe performance for the oxygen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1961.24,"endTime":1966.52,"body":"evolution reaction and also for thehydrogen evolution reaction due to the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1966.52,"endTime":1968.65,"body":"several advantage of nickel sulfur."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1968.861,"endTime":1969.561,"body":"Kevin: Ah, interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1969.561,"endTime":1972.721,"body":"So you can use the samematerial for both electrodes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1973.81,"endTime":1974.56,"body":"Miriam: Yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1974.947,"endTime":1979.837,"body":"we varied the parameter duringthe electrode position process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1980.107,"endTime":1984.967,"body":"So for the anode side, we havea higher hydroxide layer on the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1984.967,"endTime":1989.737,"body":"surface, which improves the oxygenevolution reaction and creates"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1989.737,"endTime":1992.857,"body":"stable hydroxides on the um, surface."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1993.307,"endTime":1995.587,"body":"And for the other part, for the cathode."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1995.91,"endTime":2002.63,"body":"it also improves the hydrogen evolutionreaction compared to when we only have"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2002.69,"endTime":2004.85,"body":"a nickel hydroxide without the sulfur."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2005.031,"endTime":2005.191,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2005.893,"endTime":2011.683,"body":"Miriam: and this is because during ourelectrochemical characterization and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2011.683,"endTime":2017.62,"body":"using impedance spectra, for example,we observed that the electronic"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2017.62,"endTime":2025.388,"body":"conductivity with sulfur is better thanhaving only nickel on the cathode side."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2025.765,"endTime":2025.825,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2025.825,"endTime":2029.005,"body":"And so far it's also arelatively cheap material."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2029.727,"endTime":2035.937,"body":"if you can use that instead of some, uh,iridium, then that's also another win."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2035.943,"endTime":2039.393,"body":"Basti: Yeah, Yeah, yeah, Uh, exactlyin the comparison to, to iridium."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2039.803,"endTime":2040.253,"body":"Miriam: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2040.685,"endTime":2045.185,"body":"Basti: so, so yeah, if this wholeelectrolysis part gets big and,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2045.185,"endTime":2049.235,"body":"uh, AEM electrolysis, gets big oneshould have some shares in nickel."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2049.715,"endTime":2054.275,"body":"Um, because nickel is, nickelgot, I think nickel already got"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2054.275,"endTime":2055.565,"body":"expensive in the last couple of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2056.183,"endTime":2056.343,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2056.343,"endTime":2056.583,"body":"Because"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2057.598,"endTime":2057.898,"body":"of the batteries."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2057.965,"endTime":2058.775,"body":"Basti: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2058.985,"endTime":2061.775,"body":"And, and, and, and we,we will not change that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2061.775,"endTime":2061.955,"body":"That"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2062.039,"endTime":2062.369,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2062.795,"endTime":2063.695,"body":"Basti: keep on rising up."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2063.695,"endTime":2063.905,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2063.91,"endTime":2064.895,"body":"In, in a lot of sense."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2064.895,"endTime":2069.875,"body":"It's, it's always nickel and you bringother materials inside of it to, to,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2070.055,"endTime":2072.095,"body":"to change how the nickel is structured."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2073.175,"endTime":2078.305,"body":"and you can also for, for the HER, so thehydrogen evolution site, you can also lose"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2078.605,"endTime":2081.485,"body":"cobalt based stuff or iron based stuff."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2081.605,"endTime":2088.346,"body":"So we also have currently a project that,tries to synthesize very different kinds"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2088.346,"endTime":2093.741,"body":"of materials on from different kinds ofelements or producing high entropy alloys."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2093.961,"endTime":2098.756,"body":"So materials that have oneface and are a mess out of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2099.176,"endTime":2101.666,"body":"different, uh, other materials."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2102.134,"endTime":2106.034,"body":"and to see which kind of, which materialsand which combination really like each"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2106.034,"endTime":2108.374,"body":"other to, to do, to do the reaction."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2108.773,"endTime":2112.613,"body":"But in, in a lot of sense, it, it,it's still nickel based materials."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2113.033,"endTime":2116.123,"body":"Uh, and you can do already greatstuff with nickel based materials,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2116.183,"endTime":2118.253,"body":"especially nickel iron based materials,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2118.532,"endTime":2118.542,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2118.613,"endTime":2123.633,"body":"Basti: which is nice because in theend, the actual, so there's research"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2123.653,"endTime":2127.663,"body":"on that the iron promotes the reaction."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2128.738,"endTime":2133.448,"body":"And it is in, in a sense, if you'rean analytical chemist or really"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2133.448,"endTime":2137.618,"body":"want to do your electrochemistryrigorously, you want to make sure that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2137.618,"endTime":2141.998,"body":"there's nothing else floating in yourelectrolyte besides the irons that you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2142.122,"endTime":2142.542,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2142.688,"endTime":2145.549,"body":"Basti: catalyst materials, whichis far from the actual world"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2145.549,"endTime":2146.779,"body":"later on where everything is."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2147.043,"endTime":2152.217,"body":"contaminated with iron because the wholesystem's built out of, built out of iron."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2152.607,"endTime":2153.327,"body":"And it's good to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2153.471,"endTime":2153.741,"body":"Kevin: Oh yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2153.741,"endTime":2154.281,"body":"Interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2154.497,"endTime":2154.617,"body":"Basti: the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2155.006,"endTime":2155.296,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2156.316,"endTime":2161.146,"body":"Basti: also the iron can also lead to, tosome kind of poisoning of, of material."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2161.146,"endTime":2168.166,"body":"So again, that's a balancing anddegradation, uh, which hopefully will not"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2168.166,"endTime":2170.866,"body":"be that big of an issue in the AEM world."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2170.896,"endTime":2172.156,"body":"Like it couldn't be in the PEM"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2172.156,"endTime":2172.265,"body":"Kevin: world."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2172.315,"endTime":2172.735,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2172.756,"endTime":2176.686,"body":"Basti: So, platinum poison andbased on, based out of, uh, iron"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2176.686,"endTime":2179.656,"body":"contamination is a, is a commonproblem in the, in the PEM world?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2179.83,"endTime":2180.25,"body":"Kevin: Okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2180.25,"endTime":2183.97,"body":"But when you don't have,uh, the platinum, then"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2184.301,"endTime":2184.521,"body":"Basti: No."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2184.54,"endTime":2185.41,"body":"Kevin: it's not a problem."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2185.41,"endTime":2190.225,"body":"And it, in this case, it seems to evenimprove the reaction.. Uh, but what."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2190.786,"endTime":2190.966,"body":"Basti: What are"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2191.005,"endTime":2191.797,"body":"Kevin: Are the,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2191.867,"endTime":2193.877,"body":"benefits of the sulfur?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2193.877,"endTime":2198.221,"body":"We already mentioned that youcan have both electrodes with"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2198.221,"endTime":2202.802,"body":"it, so I guess it's also an, um,manufacturing advantage when you have"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2202.802,"endTime":2204.572,"body":"one material for both sides, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2205.032,"endTime":2206.112,"body":"Miriam: Yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2206.202,"endTime":2208.392,"body":"This is, uh, one big advantage."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2208.489,"endTime":2213.404,"body":"it's, um, yeah, cheap for thefabrication process and for, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2213.404,"endTime":2215.444,"body":"the scalability for the industry."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2215.91,"endTime":2220.36,"body":"it can be easily synthesizedand we can control different"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2220.91,"endTime":2223.77,"body":"parameter to tailor each reaction."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2224.677,"endTime":2230.317,"body":"And so this is why we now want tofurther investigate and improve the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2230.317,"endTime":2234.637,"body":"different parameters for the electrodeposition and see how it works in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2234.637,"endTime":2240.167,"body":"the water electrolysis, and especiallyhow stable this material is because"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2240.167,"endTime":2242.927,"body":"now we know, okay, it's active."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2243.177,"endTime":2246.987,"body":"The deposition method is quitesimple, but we now want to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2247.317,"endTime":2251.817,"body":"investigate how stable these materialsare under long-term operation."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2251.827,"endTime":2252.677,"body":"And yeah,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2255.463,"endTime":2259.873,"body":"100 hours or maybe more,but first 100 hours."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2260.344,"endTime":2260.794,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2260.884,"endTime":2265.509,"body":"But that's already comparedto a very simple lab set up."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2265.929,"endTime":2267.489,"body":"It's, uh, quite a lot."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2267.489,"endTime":2272.11,"body":"But, to what numbers do you needto get to for like, larger scale?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2272.566,"endTime":2274.606,"body":"Basti: that's like alwaysthe typical question."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2274.606,"endTime":2278.116,"body":"And that also the answer to yourquestion a couple of minutes ago,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2278.356,"endTime":2280.386,"body":"what is one of the hindrances of AEM"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2280.51,"endTime":2280.73,"body":"Kevin: Hm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2281.026,"endTime":2284.626,"body":"Basti: that there isn't asmuch long-term data on it, and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2284.63,"endTime":2284.85,"body":"Kevin: Hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2285.07,"endTime":2285.49,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2285.796,"endTime":2288.226,"body":"Basti: and especially companycompanies are still a little bit"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2288.286,"endTime":2293.14,"body":"hesitant to, to invest in thatand then also to share the data"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2293.19,"endTime":2293.41,"body":"Kevin: Hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2293.956,"endTime":2298.786,"body":"Basti: how good their electrolysis systemthat they build up or that they bought"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2299.236,"endTime":2301.486,"body":"is, uh, performing under these real world,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2301.72,"endTime":2302.14,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2302.356,"endTime":2302.956,"body":"Basti: conditions."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2303.256,"endTime":2306.798,"body":"Of course, you want to I, if I'mnot mistaken, like a typical,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2307.12,"endTime":2310.895,"body":"alkaline water electrolyzer,they run for like 30,000 hours"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2311.045,"endTime":2311.075,"body":"or"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2311.239,"endTime":2311.319,"body":"Kevin: Hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2311.495,"endTime":2312.395,"body":"Basti: something like that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2312.785,"endTime":2318.215,"body":"Uh, there you can change like one of theparts of the, so one of the cells of the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2318.665,"endTime":2320.735,"body":"electrolyzer and then it keeps on running."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2321.17,"endTime":2324.74,"body":"these kinds of data don't existfor, for the AEM world yet, but"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2324.74,"endTime":2328.64,"body":"there are some publications thatare claiming to have done like 8,000"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2328.734,"endTime":2329.154,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2329.24,"endTime":2333.95,"body":"Basti: close to 10,000 hours, andshowing that the membrane materials"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2333.95,"endTime":2338.6,"body":"especially can stay stable, thatthe catalyst are, are, are stable."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2338.99,"endTime":2344.623,"body":"But, we hopefully, so most of ourtests are like one week long currently,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2344.713,"endTime":2346.873,"body":"which is like close to 200 hours."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2347.067,"endTime":2351.987,"body":"in the future we also aim to do1000 hours, but one needs to make"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2351.987,"endTime":2353.217,"body":"the time for that big because it's"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2353.286,"endTime":2353.856,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2354.267,"endTime":2357.387,"body":"Basti: and then you can do,can't do any other, uh, stuff."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2357.387,"endTime":2359.397,"body":"And then you really want tomake sure that everything is"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2359.531,"endTime":2359.951,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2360.033,"endTime":2362.983,"body":"Basti: this, what you wantto do is really important."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2363.167,"endTime":2363.457,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2363.573,"endTime":2364.953,"body":"Basti: you, that, that you do it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2364.953,"endTime":2370.868,"body":"But these kinds of data in, uh,actual systems are still quite rare."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2371.02,"endTime":2375.356,"body":"you can oftentimes do a lab-based setupwhere you have it in your, in your"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2375.356,"endTime":2379.166,"body":"lab, in the, in the corner where youhave like only your beaker cell, for"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2379.166,"endTime":2383.816,"body":"example, where only your, your catalystis running in there, uh, which is doable."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2384.021,"endTime":2386.751,"body":"but as soon as you get a littlebit larger, the whole stuff,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2386.751,"endTime":2388.791,"body":"then it also, the safeties and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2388.895,"endTime":2389.135,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2389.181,"endTime":2390.891,"body":"Basti: issue, uh, that you don't"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2390.945,"endTime":2392.025,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2392.211,"endTime":2392.571,"body":"Basti: like that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2393.255,"endTime":2397.125,"body":"Kevin: And then you really have toknow what question you would like to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2397.125,"endTime":2401.145,"body":"answer and what all the parametersare that you actually run this"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2401.145,"endTime":2405.855,"body":"experiment and in the end have someconclusive data and not just some data."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2406.516,"endTime":2406.776,"body":"Basti: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2406.776,"endTime":2411.486,"body":"that's also a big, a big topic that,um, a lot of people are coming, um,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2411.546,"endTime":2417.546,"body":"to us and that we are also interestedin is this called AST So accelerated"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2417.546,"endTime":2421.416,"body":"stress tests, which are commonpractice in, in the fuel cell world and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2421.54,"endTime":2421.74,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2422.166,"endTime":2425.076,"body":"Basti: in the, in the electrolysisas well, and also in a lot of other,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2425.076,"endTime":2432.636,"body":"uh, fields of, of research that youdo some kind of stress to your system"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2432.636,"endTime":2436.986,"body":"that you know, that this stress isthe same stress that the system would"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2436.986,"endTime":2439.926,"body":"see after 10 thousands of hours."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2440.226,"endTime":2442.236,"body":"So that's, that's always a big question."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2442.506,"endTime":2447.306,"body":"And we are focusing, uh, a littlebit, uh, also on that to, to early"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2447.306,"endTime":2452.263,"body":"on, stress your system that later onthat we can later on maybe get to,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2452.375,"endTime":2457.922,"body":"see the same influences,  And also theresearch for that is really interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2458.342,"endTime":2459.542,"body":"But again, not really."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2459.542,"endTime":2461.222,"body":"People do it because it did a lot of time."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2461.921,"endTime":2466.181,"body":"Kevin: Oh, and also you need tolink your accelerated data to the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2466.181,"endTime":2468.521,"body":"real life data that you want to,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2469.262,"endTime":2469.532,"body":"Basti: yeah,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2470.141,"endTime":2471.161,"body":"Kevin: emulate, I guess."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2471.477,"endTime":2471.767,"body":"Basti: yeah,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2471.879,"endTime":2472.239,"body":"Miriam: Yeah,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2472.262,"endTime":2477.452,"body":"Basti: And, uh, yeah, so, so we have,we, in the past we had like, uh, research"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2477.452,"endTime":2482.612,"body":"partners or companies, for example, foralkaline electrolysers that came to us"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2482.612,"endTime":2490.493,"body":"and said, here you have like hours ofdata, try to fit a model, then try to do"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2490.503,"endTime":2494.493,"body":"some protocols that try to mimic these"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2494.747,"endTime":2495.167,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2495.213,"endTime":2498.093,"body":"Basti: So that's also ongoingresearch, which is really interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2498.333,"endTime":2502.083,"body":"But of, you need the data, you need thelong term data, and then you need, need"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2502.083,"endTime":2508.083,"body":"the, the accuracy of the data and the,and you need more than just two numbers"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2508.083,"endTime":2510.139,"body":"to, to really, get informations out of it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2510.525,"endTime":2511.65,"body":"It's not, not too easy."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2512.461,"endTime":2514.381,"body":"Miriam: Yeah, and regarding the stability."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2514.441,"endTime":2520.128,"body":"So we do the long-term measurement,but, to really understand why"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2520.128,"endTime":2525.977,"body":"these materials, Work or are stableor are not stable in our system."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2525.977,"endTime":2531.797,"body":"It's also, um, that we need toanalyze the use materials and to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2531.797,"endTime":2538.247,"body":"then ask ourself, okay, what is thereal active, uh, site now and why"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2538.277,"endTime":2543.497,"body":"is the system running or why does mymaterial degrade during the system?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2543.887,"endTime":2548.228,"body":"And this is also something wetry to work on to, compare."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2548.825,"endTime":2551.315,"body":"This is also something, uh, we do."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2551.365,"endTime":2557.318,"body":"So we compare the, fresh material afterour synthesis and the material after"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2557.318,"endTime":2559.598,"body":"our long-term measurements to understand"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2559.86,"endTime":2560.8,"body":"Kevin: Mm. Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2561.333,"endTime":2563.853,"body":"Miriam: to understand whereare the real active sites."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2564.463,"endTime":2567.915,"body":"Kevin: So it might changeduring the electrolysis process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2567.915,"endTime":2570.495,"body":"And then you have basically"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2570.534,"endTime":2571.134,"body":"Miriam: Yes,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2571.215,"endTime":2576.345,"body":"Kevin: material that just basically insitu generate itself through the process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2576.705,"endTime":2576.945,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2577.044,"endTime":2580.764,"body":"Miriam: yes, For example, um, yeah,for our example, for the Nicholas"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2580.764,"endTime":2587.526,"body":"Sulfur, um, catalyst, we observed sulfurleaching, during our measurements."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2587.885,"endTime":2592.229,"body":"So we have a higher sulfuramount in the electrolyte"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2592.441,"endTime":2592.681,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2593.225,"endTime":2597.802,"body":"Miriam: yeah, this leads to ahigher surface area on the one"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2597.802,"endTime":2601.702,"body":"side, which is good becausethis, uh, improved our activity."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2602.842,"endTime":2607.861,"body":"um, yeah, we also want to avoidmetal ions in our system, which"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2607.861,"endTime":2614.137,"body":"maybe could also be, reason why, ourmaterials degrade during the time."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2614.573,"endTime":2617.602,"body":"Kevin: Because of other metalirons that react with the sulfur"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2617.694,"endTime":2618.084,"body":"Miriam: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2618.144,"endTime":2619.074,"body":"For example, yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2620.445,"endTime":2620.625,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2620.625,"endTime":2621.225,"body":"Interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2621.705,"endTime":2626.619,"body":"And,  Where do you see the anionExchange membrane research going?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2627.129,"endTime":2631.779,"body":"Like, what do you think is now, uh,from all your results, the next step?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2632.217,"endTime":2632.877,"body":"Basti: if you, if you look"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2632.891,"endTime":2633.311,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2633.567,"endTime":2634.197,"body":"Basti: for example."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2634.227,"endTime":2640.723,"body":"So, uh, I would think we are, on the onehand it's always interesting and important"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2640.723,"endTime":2646.183,"body":"for us as we are looking on the real worldsystems to, um, distinguish the losses."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2646.483,"endTime":2651.223,"body":"And to, uh, really linkthe losses with ex situ"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2651.497,"endTime":2651.697,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2652.183,"endTime":2652.723,"body":"Basti: data."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2652.723,"endTime":2656.893,"body":"So that's what Miriam mentioned,like measuring, uh, sulfur content"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2656.893,"endTime":2661.453,"body":"in your electrolyte afterwards or,or doing REMEDX measurements, like"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2661.453,"endTime":2662.533,"body":"how, how your material change."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2662.533,"endTime":2663.793,"body":"And we are capable of doing that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2663.793,"endTime":2668.473,"body":"So that's, always good to haveeverything regarding of that in-house"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2668.473,"endTime":2672.883,"body":"to to, to see how, how stuff changesafter a certain amount of times or"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2672.883,"endTime":2678.223,"body":"certain amount of stresses, but alsoto, to employ some tricks to, that's"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2678.223,"endTime":2684.823,"body":"like one of my, my favorite topics todistinguish the losses is to reintroduce"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2684.823,"endTime":2688.064,"body":"a reference point into our, um, cell"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2688.323,"endTime":2688.743,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2688.904,"endTime":2692.834,"body":"Basti: So as previously mentioned,we measure the current or the voltage"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2692.834,"endTime":2697.724,"body":"between anode and cathode, uh, butto see only the anode, then you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2697.724,"endTime":2701.384,"body":"would need another reference point orso-called reference electrodes as is."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2702.044,"endTime":2706.124,"body":"Common common practice in,in, in lab-based, stuff."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2706.124,"endTime":2710.294,"body":"But that's not too easy to do inthe, in on a, on a real cell system."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2710.294,"endTime":2714.473,"body":"And we are also looking into that, toreintroduce the reference point that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2714.473,"endTime":2718.673,"body":"we can only measure the anode lossesand only measure the cathode losses"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2719.227,"endTime":2719.747,"body":"Kevin: Hmm mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2720.173,"endTime":2724.163,"body":"Basti: can, be more certainthat actually our new material"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2724.193,"endTime":2725.873,"body":"degraded or did not degrade."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2726.233,"endTime":2730.388,"body":"So even if we now see de degradationin our cell, we can't for a hundred"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2730.388,"endTime":2731.948,"body":"percent, be sure that it's the new"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2732.312,"endTime":2732.732,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2732.968,"endTime":2734.618,"body":"Basti: could also have been like"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2734.686,"endTime":2735.97,"body":"Kevin: Some interactions, huh?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2736.446,"endTime":2736.776,"body":"Basti: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2737.196,"endTime":2741.696,"body":"And uh, that's always, that isan interesting, uh, topic that,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2741.696,"endTime":2745.449,"body":"that we are putting a, someeffort into it, to really do that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2745.546,"endTime":2748.696,"body":"not only we are interested in that,there are a lot of people interested in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2748.696,"endTime":2755.966,"body":"that, especially because now, um, the, Iwould say the basic research can be done"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2755.966,"endTime":2762.706,"body":"still, lab-based research, but the focusmore immensely shifted to the industry"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2762.915,"endTime":2763.335,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2763.336,"endTime":2767.755,"body":"Basti: research because we know that,AEMs are stable and we know that you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2767.755,"endTime":2773.755,"body":"can manufacture stable catalysts thatare active, and of course you can, you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2773.755,"endTime":2778.855,"body":"can improve on the catalyst materials,but really, now how they perform after"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2779.164,"endTime":2779.584,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2779.79,"endTime":2784.326,"body":"Basti: 1000 hours on the river, that'sthe stuff for the whole community,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2784.716,"endTime":2786.456,"body":"uh, and then also for the industry."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2786.456,"endTime":2787.711,"body":"So I think there's a big shift."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2788.916,"endTime":2793.402,"body":"Coming or even bigger shift that theseare the big problems to translate your,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2793.402,"endTime":2796.012,"body":"your lab-based work into the real world."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2796.882,"endTime":2803.632,"body":"we also want to do, uh, this year witha, with a greater focus for, to see,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2803.782,"endTime":2810.322,"body":"okay, we now only take like one catalystmaterial and put it on, on a reduced"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2810.352,"endTime":2814.312,"body":"rotating disc electrode setup, wherewe can do typical catalyst research,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2814.312,"endTime":2819.532,"body":"then we apply it to a PTL and do likein, in beca or flow cell measurements."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2819.532,"endTime":2826.232,"body":"And then later on put it in the, inthe cell to see how the same, basically"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2826.232,"endTime":2831.242,"body":"same catalyst material changes ateach step of the transfer line."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2831.296,"endTime":2831.716,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2831.992,"endTime":2836.986,"body":"Basti: as we get closer to the industry,how does this particular catalyst"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2836.986,"endTime":2840.766,"body":"that we then will be using changesor behaves differently and what can"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2840.766,"endTime":2844.126,"body":"we already see in the small world?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2844.606,"endTime":2847.703,"body":"Which is then also be true in the,in the, in the big, cell world."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2847.857,"endTime":2848.097,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2848.64,"endTime":2852.345,"body":"Basti: And I think a lot of peopleare coming more to that to, do more"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2853.035,"endTime":2855.315,"body":"application near research in the, A"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2855.519,"endTime":2855.939,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2856.494,"endTime":2861.739,"body":"So basically bridging the gap betweenthis lab and industry setup, and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2861.82,"endTime":2862.11,"body":"Basti: yeah,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2862.159,"endTime":2862.539,"body":"Kevin: you do."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2863.409,"endTime":2869.319,"body":"All of it, as I understand, so you canbasically take one material and scale"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2869.319,"endTime":2875.379,"body":"it up from very small applicationsto bigger applications and see if the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2875.379,"endTime":2880.269,"body":"experiments you get in the beginningare still true in in large scale."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2881.145,"endTime":2881.325,"body":"Basti: yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2881.385,"endTime":2885.465,"body":"For example, something I, I, now we geta little bit into the nerd shit, but I"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2885.465,"endTime":2886.635,"body":"have to do a little bit of nerd shit."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2887.076,"endTime":2889.326,"body":"There's a miriam alreadymentioned it briefly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2889.326,"endTime":2891.666,"body":"It's like impedance, uh, spectroscopy."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2891.666,"endTime":2895.296,"body":"So electrochemical impedance,spectroscopy, or ice in."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2895.795,"endTime":2896.215,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2896.541,"endTime":2901.161,"body":"Basti: Uh, which is like, uh, a common,uh, electrochemical characterization"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2901.161,"endTime":2905.571,"body":"practice where you apply, uh, you, youhave your system on the load and then"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2905.571,"endTime":2908.121,"body":"you apply, uh, alternating current on it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2908.121,"endTime":2914.091,"body":"And then different parts of your systembehave differently to the current,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2914.361,"endTime":2916.491,"body":"which is also sweeping in frequency."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2916.715,"endTime":2916.935,"body":"Kevin: Hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2917.031,"endTime":2920.301,"body":"Basti: that some parts then actas a typical resistor or some"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2920.301,"endTime":2922.305,"body":"parts, act like a capacitor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2922.545,"endTime":2928.005,"body":"And then you can like kind of map outyour, your electric chemical cell as"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2928.005,"endTime":2933.555,"body":"an part of just regular electricalcomponents, which is common work."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2933.885,"endTime":2938.203,"body":"But then there's a little bit new moremathematic approach, which is then"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2938.203,"endTime":2945.043,"body":"called distribution of relaxation timeswhere you at your losses based on their"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2945.073,"endTime":2950.672,"body":"characteristic frequency, how they, Ariseduring the impedance measurements and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2950.811,"endTime":2952.071,"body":"Kevin: Losses from the material."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2952.952,"endTime":2953.612,"body":"Basti: losses from your"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2953.651,"endTime":2954.071,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2954.422,"endTime":2958.472,"body":"Basti: you can, you can, you can thensee that your, your actual charge"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2958.472,"endTime":2960.182,"body":"transfer resistance or where your."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2960.526,"endTime":2961.156,"body":"Charges."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2961.216,"endTime":2965.776,"body":"Uh, so your re actual reelectionreaction habits, how, how much of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2965.776,"endTime":2968.266,"body":"the overall losses are from that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2968.656,"endTime":2972.076,"body":"And then you can, if you, if youhave really good control over your"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2972.076,"endTime":2976.887,"body":"system, you can see both electrodesat the same time that they have"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2977.137,"endTime":2979.474,"body":"distingt characteristic frequencies."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2979.774,"endTime":2982.384,"body":"And then you have otherprocesses that also have distinct"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2982.384,"endTime":2983.434,"body":"characteristic frequencies."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2983.434,"endTime":2989.314,"body":"For example, everything media basedfor like water or, or, or oxygen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2989.314,"endTime":2993.454,"body":"or hydrogen transportation is amore slow, slower process than"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2993.454,"endTime":2995.854,"body":"iron conducting processes or the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2995.854,"endTime":2996.104,"body":"Kevin: charge"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2996.104,"endTime":2998.164,"body":"Basti: transfer And thenyou can map that out."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2998.554,"endTime":3002.394,"body":"And, uh, that also gets moreattention right now in world"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3002.394,"endTime":3005.774,"body":"of, of catalyst research or,electrolysis or fuel cell research."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3006.164,"endTime":3009.044,"body":"But there's a lot ofstuff that one can still"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3009.158,"endTime":3009.578,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3009.644,"endTime":3010.754,"body":"Basti: which then gets interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3010.754,"endTime":3016.124,"body":"And that's like the stuff that I really,uh, I really like then because, uh, it"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3016.124,"endTime":3018.884,"body":"kind of feels like voodoo in, in a sense."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3019.274,"endTime":3024.164,"body":"Um, and a lot of people are, especiallybecause of that afraid of it and because"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3024.164,"endTime":3028.814,"body":"it's a lot of math that no one reallyunderstands who isn't a math person."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3029.186,"endTime":3032.803,"body":"but, uh, I think there's a lot ofpotential to, get the insights if you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3032.803,"endTime":3034.213,"body":"have good knowledge about your system."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3034.393,"endTime":3039.073,"body":"And that's, for example, would be theninteresting if we do this transfer"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3039.073,"endTime":3044.353,"body":"study from the RDE to B cell andthen the electro cell to see how"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3044.353,"endTime":3049.153,"body":"these losses which are associatedwith peaks, uh, change then."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3049.153,"endTime":3054.484,"body":"Or if you can identify the same peaks atthe same frequencies or how, how that,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3054.623,"endTime":3058.583,"body":"Turns out that I think is an interestingquestion that I want to do or we want"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3058.583,"endTime":3060.263,"body":"to do later this year, for example."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3060.937,"endTime":3062.042,"body":"Kevin: Hmm, interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3062.432,"endTime":3068.762,"body":"So also improving on the, uh,measurements and the data you collect to."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3069.036,"endTime":3073.596,"body":"More deeply understand whatthe actual, um, degradation"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3073.596,"endTime":3075.006,"body":"processes are, for example."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3075.402,"endTime":3076.182,"body":"Basti: And especially in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3076.296,"endTime":3076.386,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3076.722,"endTime":3080.502,"body":"Basti: with, with degradation, Ithink it's interesting because then"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3080.502,"endTime":3082.782,"body":"you take some ambiguity out of it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3083.098,"endTime":3086.098,"body":"and so if we look at degradationand electrolysis cell, we"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3086.098,"endTime":3087.448,"body":"look at degradation rates."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3087.448,"endTime":3091.666,"body":"So how much, uh, voltageincrease you have over time."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3092.476,"endTime":3093.856,"body":"but that's like one number."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3094.876,"endTime":3098.506,"body":"Don't know what actuallyis making the number go up."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3098.836,"endTime":3103.036,"body":"Uh, and then for example, with thisdistribution of relaxation times, one"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3103.036,"endTime":3107.836,"body":"can see that some peaks stay constant,but some other peaks are shifting in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3107.836,"endTime":3110.116,"body":"time and also shifting in magnitude."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3110.566,"endTime":3115.891,"body":"Uh, and if you have good knowledge aboutyour system, in theory, you could really"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3116.331,"endTime":3120.496,"body":"identify like then the degradation, saythat the degradation is based on this,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3120.976,"endTime":3124.996,"body":"and sometimes maybe have an idea of theprocess that causes the degradation."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3124.996,"endTime":3128.026,"body":"But then as Miriam mentioned, youneed all this ex situ to stuff as"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3128.21,"endTime":3128.63,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3128.776,"endTime":3129.646,"body":"Basti: to to, link that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3130.22,"endTime":3130.49,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3130.49,"endTime":3131.36,"body":"Super interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3131.734,"endTime":3132.364,"body":"Okay, great."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3132.364,"endTime":3136.054,"body":"Then, uh, we can, can cometo the closing question."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3136.414,"endTime":3140.284,"body":"That is, what is your favoritediscovery in chemistry?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3140.284,"endTime":3145.924,"body":"And, uh, since you both are chemicalengineers, uh, I would also let"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3145.924,"endTime":3148.264,"body":"some engineering questions count."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3149.519,"endTime":3149.699,"body":"Basti: Well,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3149.788,"endTime":3149.908,"body":"Kevin: I"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3150.029,"endTime":3153.509,"body":"Basti: I, really struggled withthat one because I expected of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3153.509,"endTime":3155.129,"body":"myself that I would have an answer."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3155.129,"endTime":3160.919,"body":"But I, I, I, so, so that there arethese obvious answers like vaccine"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3160.979,"endTime":3164.459,"body":"antibiotics, Haber Bosch, um,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3166.979,"endTime":3171.419,"body":"but they don't really capture,like I, me, I, now, now it's"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3171.419,"endTime":3172.559,"body":"a little bit on a tangent."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3173.219,"endTime":3176.099,"body":"Uh, I would, I can tell youwhat I think is the interesting,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3176.519,"endTime":3178.049,"body":"the most interesting question,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3178.308,"endTime":3178.588,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3179.039,"endTime":3179.279,"body":"Basti: but"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3179.448,"endTime":3179.668,"body":"Kevin: No."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3179.879,"endTime":3183.269,"body":"Basti: the mo but that's likeconscious science and philosophy."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3183.719,"endTime":3185.609,"body":"It's not really chemistry or,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3185.618,"endTime":3185.908,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3185.938,"endTime":3186.228,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3187.529,"endTime":3192.419,"body":"Basti: nature science anymore, but a, a,a little bit also that, because it's a lot"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3192.419,"endTime":3199.079,"body":"of psychology stuff inside of it, but I, Idon't have any good answer on the basics."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3199.139,"endTime":3201.389,"body":"Chemistry or engineering."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3201.389,"endTime":3201.929,"body":"I dunno."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3202.801,"endTime":3203.431,"body":"Miriam: I don't know."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3203.431,"endTime":3209.496,"body":"What comes to my mind is that, uh, areable to fly to the moon, for example."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3210.113,"endTime":3210.533,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3211.021,"endTime":3216.511,"body":"Miriam: So this is, uh, something I findreally impressive that we are able to do."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3216.511,"endTime":3216.901,"body":"So,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3217.317,"endTime":3221.257,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, that combines alot of engineering, chemistry,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3221.257,"endTime":3222.367,"body":"and all kinds of science topics."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3223.972,"endTime":3224.872,"body":"Basti: But what is yours?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3224.932,"endTime":3227.992,"body":"What would you say as a, as achemist, what is your favorite"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3228.376,"endTime":3231.976,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, mine is the Hava Boschprocess you already mentioned."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3231.976,"endTime":3233.056,"body":"That's one of the big ones."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3233.056,"endTime":3238.876,"body":"But, um, I've already done also oneepisode about the history of it and some"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3238.876,"endTime":3241.961,"body":"other, episodes on ammonia and stuff."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3241.961,"endTime":3247.421,"body":"And it's just impressive because basicallywithout this processs, we would have"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3247.421,"endTime":3250.153,"body":"about one third less people on the planet,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3250.357,"endTime":3252.217,"body":"that's quite impressive."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3252.503,"endTime":3256.102,"body":"Basti: Ah, maybe, maybe now you,you, you got me thinking, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3256.102,"endTime":3259.432,"body":"maybe one of the engineering parts,which is interesting, which is more"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3259.432,"endTime":3261.562,"body":"physics, is this whole, uh, RSL."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3262.012,"endTime":3264.995,"body":"So like who built the,ship manufacturing machine,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3264.999,"endTime":3265.199,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3265.655,"endTime":3270.155,"body":"Basti: which then on the, I don't know,what kind of scale is able to produce"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3270.155,"endTime":3275.639,"body":"the, chips that we, the processorthat we need and really use that TMC"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3275.703,"endTime":3276.123,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3276.149,"endTime":3276.659,"body":"Basti: build and stuff."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3276.809,"endTime":3278.939,"body":"That's really, that's really crazy."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3279.059,"endTime":3281.309,"body":"That is really crazyengineering stuff that they,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3281.468,"endTime":3281.888,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3282.029,"endTime":3282.809,"body":"Basti: got that working."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3282.809,"endTime":3283.619,"body":"That's insane."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3283.808,"endTime":3284.108,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3284.108,"endTime":3285.848,"body":"These machines are crazy."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3286.208,"endTime":3287.558,"body":"They're so precise"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3288.059,"endTime":3288.299,"body":"Basti: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3288.299,"endTime":3288.659,"body":"that's"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3288.908,"endTime":3293.772,"body":"Kevin: that even normal, uh,lasers are not precise enough."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3294.513,"endTime":3294.813,"body":"Basti: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3295.033,"endTime":3298.351,"body":"and the, and I, thinkthat's, that's underrated."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3298.381,"endTime":3299.581,"body":"Engineering feed maybe,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3299.703,"endTime":3299.993,"body":"Kevin: Okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3300.183,"endTime":3302.858,"body":"Then thank you very much for joining me."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3302.858,"endTime":3308.36,"body":"There was a lot that I learned about,AEM and, uh, the research about it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3308.63,"endTime":3309.5,"body":"Thank you very much."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3309.544,"endTime":3310.459,"body":"Basti: thanks for having us."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3311.828,"endTime":3313.053,"body":"Miriam: Thank You again for inviting us."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3313.464,"endTime":3316.114,"body":"Kevin: Also, thank youvery much for listening."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3316.484,"endTime":3320.954,"body":"Please don't forget to follow Innovateand React on wherever you're listening"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3321.091,"endTime":3325.238,"body":"this really helps the show to grow andget new exciting guests on to continue."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3325.743,"endTime":3329.673,"body":"Check out the show notes tolearn more about ZBT and their"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3329.683,"endTime":3332.153,"body":"research in hydrogen technologies."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3332.464,"endTime":3336.474,"body":"and if you would like to talk aboutyour research or a startup on the show,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3336.794,"endTime":3342.244,"body":"contact me on LinkedIn or send me anemail to contact@innovateandreact.com."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3342.777,"endTime":3345.227,"body":"Until next time, keepinnovating and stay curious."}]}