{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":null,"startTime":1.293,"endTime":3.178,"body":"Kevin: Welcome to Innovate and React."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3.238,"endTime":7.048,"body":"I'm Kevin Hares, and in today'sepisode, we will talk about"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":7.288,"endTime":10.29,"body":"innovative hydrogen storage solution."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":11.04,"endTime":16.02,"body":"Today's guest is Jonas Massa,co-founder of AKROS Energy, and they"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":16.02,"endTime":21.78,"body":"are developing new solutions forhydrogen storage and transportation."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":22.305,"endTime":22.845,"body":"Hi Jonas."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":23.407,"endTime":23.627,"body":"Jonas: Hi."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":23.632,"endTime":24.542,"body":"Hi Kevin."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":25.037,"endTime":29.177,"body":"Kevin: Thank you for being here and,uh, talking, to me about your new"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":29.177,"endTime":32.177,"body":"solutions on, uh, hydrogen storage."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":32.177,"endTime":35.522,"body":"But, uh, maybe first whatbrought you to hydrogen?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":36.083,"endTime":36.443,"body":"Jonas: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":36.443,"endTime":43.283,"body":"I am a chemical engineer and in my studiedI I focusing on chemical hydrogen storage."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":43.643,"endTime":43.883,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":43.883,"endTime":48.758,"body":"I studied in, in Bavariain the FAU and, and they."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":49.103,"endTime":55.313,"body":"Uh, the whole topic of hydrogen storagewithin LOHC is a big topic, and there"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":55.313,"endTime":60.563,"body":"I move in with my master thesis and,and start a study about the refueling"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":60.563,"endTime":64.103,"body":"station that is autonomous with LOHC."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":64.533,"endTime":69.483,"body":"And then I directly go in thewhole field of hydrogen storage."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":69.483,"endTime":74.583,"body":"And after my, um, switchto my home location near."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":75.093,"endTime":81.668,"body":"Rostock, I, I started at the H2Apexcompany and there was also a focus to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":81.668,"endTime":88.471,"body":"hydrogen and how we get hydrogen as amolecule sufficiently stored in, in the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":88.471,"endTime":91.141,"body":"media that is non-hazardous and so on."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":91.471,"endTime":98.076,"body":"And therefore, I started, um, to go onwith research regarding hydrogen storage."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":98.876,"endTime":102.476,"body":"Kevin: Maybe for those, uh, who arenot familiar with the abbreviation,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":102.836,"endTime":105.356,"body":"the LOHC, what is that again?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":106.886,"endTime":107.126,"body":"Jonas: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":107.126,"endTime":111.316,"body":"LOHC is a type of liquidorganic hydrogen carrier."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":111.346,"endTime":111.796,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":112.246,"endTime":119.266,"body":"Um, this is a type of molecule,namely dibenzyltoloene, was able to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":119.266,"endTime":122.684,"body":"store hydrogen within, uh, within the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":122.747,"endTime":124.937,"body":"organic structure of the molecule."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":125.387,"endTime":130.757,"body":"And there we are able to storehydrogen in and, uh, out of the, of the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":131.447,"endTime":131.867,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":132.257,"endTime":134.027,"body":"Jonas: heated oil, I would say."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":134.132,"endTime":135.992,"body":"Kevin: Well basicallystore it as a liquid."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":136.382,"endTime":141.302,"body":"And that's, uh, also what, uh, theproblem is that we want to discuss today."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":141.302,"endTime":146.012,"body":"When we are looking at hydrogen,we have, uh, the electrolyzer"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":146.012,"endTime":150.767,"body":"technology to produce hydrogenthat's already known for a long time."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":151.217,"endTime":154.607,"body":"And we have a lot of processesin the chemical industry"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":154.607,"endTime":157.066,"body":"that use hydrogen already."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":157.396,"endTime":163.066,"body":"Mostly gray hydrogen nowadays, butideally you want to replace that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":163.096,"endTime":169.456,"body":"and the production sites are notnecessarily where the, uh, use"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":169.461,"endTime":170.866,"body":"of the hydrogen will take place."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":170.866,"endTime":171.736,"body":"So we need."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":172.396,"endTime":176.836,"body":"Ways to transport the hydrogenand store the hydrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":177.646,"endTime":184.216,"body":"So what is the main problem inyour opinion with this storage and,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":184.786,"endTime":186.181,"body":"uh, transportation of hydrogen?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":187.286,"endTime":191.006,"body":"Jonas: Yeah, as you said, we have theproblem with renewables, that they are"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":191.516,"endTime":194.006,"body":"not well distributed in in location."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":194.731,"endTime":197.011,"body":"Not well distributed in time."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":197.161,"endTime":203.581,"body":"So we have also fluctuation within a timeperiod, a short time period day tonight,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":203.581,"endTime":206.911,"body":"or a long time period of seasonal effects."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":207.211,"endTime":212.341,"body":"And these are the two obstacles ofrenewable energies, and therefore we need"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":212.341,"endTime":217.996,"body":"hydrogen to store energy and make theenergy reliable at any time and anywhere."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":218.446,"endTime":221.416,"body":"And there our system comes into play."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":221.656,"endTime":226.156,"body":"How you get the molecule, hydrogenitself stored because hydrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":226.156,"endTime":227.836,"body":"itself, it's a green molecule."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":228.076,"endTime":233.366,"body":"When you burn it, um, it onlyevolves, water and no CO2."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":233.696,"endTime":238.466,"body":"But nevertheless, hydrogen is aexplosive of gas or a flammable"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":238.466,"endTime":243.776,"body":"gas, and therefore it's a obstaclein, in regard to acceptance of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":243.776,"endTime":246.751,"body":"the society and in regulation and,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":247.451,"endTime":247.721,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":247.851,"endTime":249.151,"body":"Jonas: um, hazardous potential."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":249.266,"endTime":256.076,"body":"Kevin: It comes also into new placesbecause when we now have the current"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":256.106,"endTime":263.486,"body":"fossil based system, we have the hydrogenproduction as the big, um, methane,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":263.756,"endTime":266.606,"body":"uh, reformers in a chemical site."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":266.606,"endTime":272.131,"body":"It's very confined and there are not alot of untrained people anywhere near."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":272.911,"endTime":279.176,"body":"And if we go to this green hydrogen,we can think more of decentralized"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":279.176,"endTime":284.486,"body":"solutions, small wind farm orsolar panels, and then can also"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":284.486,"endTime":286.381,"body":"be produced somewhere else, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":287.801,"endTime":288.011,"body":"Jonas: Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":288.491,"endTime":294.221,"body":"And this is the the big point because whenwe decentralized, as you said, we will"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":294.341,"endTime":301.481,"body":"include personnel that is not well trainedin, in industrial processes and so on."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":301.721,"endTime":304.481,"body":"So we need a, a carryor something like that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":304.481,"endTime":304.541,"body":"That is."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":305.756,"endTime":311.536,"body":"Easy to handle in a wide spectraof personal, or of human that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":311.536,"endTime":313.366,"body":"interfere with the technology."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":314.116,"endTime":320.806,"body":"Kevin: You already mentioned the LOHCs,which is a solution for this, um, problem."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":320.896,"endTime":326.476,"body":"What the other state of the art, storageand transportation solutions that we have."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":327.681,"endTime":328.336,"body":"Jonas: Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":328.336,"endTime":333.376,"body":"The, the most, um, advancedor the most used, um, hydrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":333.376,"endTime":335.026,"body":"storage is a pressure vessel."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":335.416,"endTime":341.866,"body":"So the normal way is to pressurizehydrogen up to 700 bar, especially"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":342.136,"endTime":347.036,"body":"in refueling fuel cells or fuelcell buses or something like that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":347.306,"endTime":349.106,"body":"Here I'm located in G\u00fcstrow."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":349.296,"endTime":354.066,"body":"We have a fleet of of hydrogenrunning fuel cell buses."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":354.606,"endTime":359.916,"body":"So it's the common way to, to pressurizehydrogen to use it in mobility."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":360.696,"endTime":364.866,"body":"And moreover, we used ammoniaas one of the biggest chemical"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":364.866,"endTime":367.236,"body":"feedstocks to store hydrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":367.896,"endTime":369.516,"body":"And ammonia has a problem."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":369.516,"endTime":374.356,"body":"It's it's toxic, and therefore, whenwe want to spread it in, in the wide"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":374.356,"endTime":379.966,"body":"application, we have the, the problemof toxicity and, and handling these"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":380.386,"endTime":383.986,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, definitely it,it might be a solution for"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":383.986,"endTime":386.056,"body":"these like chemical companies."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":386.056,"endTime":392.236,"body":"It's already traded as a commodity forfertilizer production, but if we are"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":392.236,"endTime":398.326,"body":"thinking about more like people's homesor cars, then that's not an option."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":398.326,"endTime":398.356,"body":"I."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":399.871,"endTime":400.111,"body":"Jonas: Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":400.178,"endTime":400.808,"body":"So yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":400.808,"endTime":405.678,"body":"There we have to differentiate thedifferent application of hydrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":405.678,"endTime":406.008,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":406.248,"endTime":410.228,"body":"Every application haveits own unique criteria."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":410.678,"endTime":410.978,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":411.638,"endTime":417.758,"body":"Maybe in regard to toxicity, handlingor energy density or how cheap it"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":417.968,"endTime":419.858,"body":"should be, something like that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":419.858,"endTime":424.568,"body":"So we have a lot of criteria that changewhen we look to different sectors."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":424.748,"endTime":424.988,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":425.048,"endTime":426.848,"body":"Especially in mobility."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":427.238,"endTime":431.583,"body":"It's important that we have a highenergy density because our, our car has"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":432.318,"endTime":437.178,"body":"to run a long way to the next travelpoint where I want to go, but when"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":437.178,"endTime":442.038,"body":"we are looking to stationary hydrogenstorage or stationary energy storage,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":442.338,"endTime":445.188,"body":"energy density is not that important."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":445.518,"endTime":449.568,"body":"In regard to other criteria likeefficiency, uh, I want to have a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":449.568,"endTime":454.163,"body":"efficient system that is able tostore seasonal power efficient."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":454.683,"endTime":455.073,"body":"There."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":455.073,"endTime":460.413,"body":"You see, in different application wehave totally different criteria and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":460.413,"endTime":467.343,"body":"therefore other technology will appealto different niches and especially"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":467.343,"endTime":472.768,"body":"ammonia has a high energy density, but,but the efficiency is not so great."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":472.908,"endTime":477.303,"body":"But high energy density is coolwhen we want to transport it"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":477.573,"endTime":479.883,"body":"worldwide over a big distance."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":480.483,"endTime":484.173,"body":"Then am ammonia comes intoplay from harbor to harbor"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":484.173,"endTime":486.753,"body":"with industrial facilities."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":486.753,"endTime":492.153,"body":"But when we go to the inlandsector, ammonia will have some"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":492.153,"endTime":494.423,"body":"obstacles in regard to toxicity"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":494.493,"endTime":494.733,"body":"Kevin: Hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":495.063,"endTime":499.288,"body":"Also, can you easily, uh, transportit with trains, for example?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":499.765,"endTime":504.625,"body":"Jonas: It's able to transport withtrains, but they, the regulation"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":504.685,"endTime":506.845,"body":"will, will fight against you."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":506.995,"endTime":507.175,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":507.175,"endTime":515.185,"body":"It's hard to, to get a new, um, new energycarrier within the regularity framework."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":515.95,"endTime":521.05,"body":"So we have to consider this whenwe want to, to speed up in the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":521.11,"endTime":523.42,"body":"whole renewable energy sector."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":523.57,"endTime":530.2,"body":"We have to find technologies that are easyto scale up and easy to get in permission."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":531.055,"endTime":535.525,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, I think that's, uh,brings us also to your technology."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":535.555,"endTime":536.065,"body":"How."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":536.71,"endTime":540.61,"body":"Are you with AKROS Energytackling this problem?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":541.216,"endTime":541.516,"body":"Jonas: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":541.516,"endTime":546.766,"body":"Um, we store hydrogen in salts,so we use two different salts,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":546.856,"endTime":552.196,"body":"namely potassium bicarbonate andpotassium formate, and they are."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":552.766,"endTime":555.496,"body":"Really, um, used by industry."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":555.646,"endTime":562.246,"body":"Yeah, so, so potassium bicarbonate isused for antiflaming agent or baking soda"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":562.246,"endTime":567.706,"body":"in your kitchen, and we have a processthat is able to store hydrogen on that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":567.916,"endTime":570.616,"body":"baking soda and produce potassium format."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":570.646,"endTime":574.426,"body":"And potassium format is alsoa salt that is non-toxic."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":574.951,"endTime":581.431,"body":"That is used for, for anti-icing,um, agent for airplanes in the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":581.431,"endTime":585.391,"body":"winter, or deep sea drilling of oil."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":585.511,"endTime":590.941,"body":"So to seal the, the drilling holethey used, um, potassium format"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":591.121,"endTime":594.266,"body":"because it's environmental friendly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":594.586,"endTime":600.666,"body":"Kevin: Okay, so it's actually soenvironmental friendly that you can put"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":600.666,"endTime":606.366,"body":"it on the borehole and then it mightget into the sea or whatever, but it's"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":606.366,"endTime":607.891,"body":"not toxic to the fish or anything."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":608.691,"endTime":609.381,"body":"Jonas: Right, right,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":609.771,"endTime":610.401,"body":"Kevin: Interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":610.671,"endTime":612.771,"body":"And also baking soda."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":612.771,"endTime":614.481,"body":"I think that speaks for itself."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":614.481,"endTime":616.581,"body":"How, how"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":617.061,"endTime":617.361,"body":"Jonas: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":617.361,"endTime":617.371,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":617.601,"endTime":617.901,"body":"Kevin: it is."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":618.574,"endTime":624.034,"body":"Jonas: And that is the, the coolest thingin chemistry when you can handle such"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":624.154,"endTime":627.334,"body":"non-toxic, uh, materials in your lab."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":627.334,"endTime":630.844,"body":"It's, it's without any fearor something like that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":630.844,"endTime":632.974,"body":"We can taste the, the different salts."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":633.024,"endTime":633.384,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":633.444,"endTime":635.694,"body":"You will figure out a different taste."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":635.694,"endTime":639.204,"body":"When, when the hydrogen solutionis loaded with hydrogen or"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":639.414,"endTime":641.484,"body":"discharge, you can taste it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":642.144,"endTime":646.794,"body":"In the, in the older days ofchemistry, where always you, you,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":647.064,"endTime":648.889,"body":"you, you, try to taste something."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":648.889,"endTime":649.129,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":649.807,"endTime":652.657,"body":"Kevin: These chemicalsare known for a long time."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":652.657,"endTime":658.927,"body":"And what, um, brought you the idea touse this as a hydrogen storage medium."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":660.712,"endTime":664.282,"body":"Jonas: Yeah, the idea isnot originally from us."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":664.282,"endTime":670.102,"body":"Um, since the eighties there wasresearch about the system and in Israel"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":670.462,"endTime":676.197,"body":"they found out that it's easy to storehydrogen within the salt, um, system."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":676.287,"endTime":681.627,"body":"And we developed a process thatis able to scale it up to a bigger"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":681.627,"endTime":685.257,"body":"scale or to a market entry level."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":685.707,"endTime":691.707,"body":"Because from that on, it was only in labscale with a small amount of catalyst"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":691.707,"endTime":693.537,"body":"and the small amount of ingredients."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":693.537,"endTime":697.857,"body":"And we developed a processthat is able to scale fast to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":697.857,"endTime":699.507,"body":"to, to move it in the market."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":700.057,"endTime":703.837,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, that it can actually beused in large scales because when we"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":703.837,"endTime":708.577,"body":"are talking about this kind of energystorage, we are not talking about grams."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":708.577,"endTime":713.167,"body":"It's more like several thousandtons that have to be used at some"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":713.467,"endTime":713.947,"body":"Jonas: Right, right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":714.097,"endTime":719.797,"body":"When we looking to different applicationfor decentralized application, there will"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":719.797,"endTime":724.447,"body":"be smaller plans, but when we're lookingto global transport, we're talking about."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":725.257,"endTime":730.597,"body":"Gigawatts of, of hydrogen that arestored and released in the harbor"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":730.597,"endTime":733.267,"body":"for a sufficient energy transition."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":733.657,"endTime":738.487,"body":"Therefore, we have different scalesand, and we as a startup, um, starting"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":738.487,"endTime":743.627,"body":"with a small scale and from that onbuilding bigger and bigger, um, plans to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":743.957,"endTime":746.217,"body":"fulfill the, the demands of the future."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":746.237,"endTime":746.657,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":747.477,"endTime":752.087,"body":"And, um, your technologyis the, the catalyst which"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":752.087,"endTime":753.977,"body":"makes this reaction possible."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":753.977,"endTime":758.297,"body":"And I assume the catalystis then inside of a reactor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":758.297,"endTime":761.837,"body":"Maybe talk me a bit through your process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":761.837,"endTime":764.897,"body":"How, how does it startfrom the hydrogen and."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":765.572,"endTime":766.022,"body":"Jonas: For sure."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":766.232,"endTime":770.882,"body":"So we, um, have a cooperation withthe Leibniz Institute for Catalysts."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":770.972,"endTime":775.832,"body":"So since years we working togetherand we, we start invention"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":775.882,"endTime":777.592,"body":"in the field of the catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":777.592,"endTime":782.032,"body":"So we have a heterogeneous catalystthat is fixed in the reactor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":782.062,"endTime":783.802,"body":"So it's a fixed battery reactor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":784.107,"endTime":786.417,"body":"And it's a way easy process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":786.417,"endTime":786.567,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":786.567,"endTime":788.127,"body":"We have our salt solution."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":788.127,"endTime":791.037,"body":"So we take the salt, put it in solution."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":791.067,"endTime":793.047,"body":"Then we have basically salt water."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":793.497,"endTime":799.317,"body":"And our system is the, the second,um, unique selling point that we"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":799.317,"endTime":801.447,"body":"have a low reaction end therapy."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":801.892,"endTime":806.242,"body":"Therefore we need only, uh,uh, temperature of 60 degree."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":806.242,"endTime":811.522,"body":"So we heat the, the solution up to 60degree and then we put it in the reactor"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":811.522,"endTime":816.712,"body":"of the catalyst and immediately thehydrogen is evolving from the salt water"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":816.712,"endTime":820.042,"body":"and is flowing outside of the head of the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":820.067,"endTime":820.487,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":821.152,"endTime":823.972,"body":"So that's the decoupling."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":824.632,"endTime":825.682,"body":"Uh, of the hydrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":825.682,"endTime":828.427,"body":"And how do you load yoursalt with, uh, hydrogen?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":829.957,"endTime":832.177,"body":"Jonas: That take placein the same reactor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":832.177,"endTime":837.907,"body":"So, um, we, we cool the whole systembecause the chemical equilibrium"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":837.907,"endTime":840.847,"body":"itself, it's near ambient conditions."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":840.847,"endTime":845.347,"body":"So when we want to store it, we,we pressurize the whole system up"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":845.347,"endTime":850.807,"body":"to 10 to to 30 bars, and then webubbling in the hydrogen and then"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":850.807,"endTime":853.447,"body":"directly due to the same catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":853.867,"endTime":858.247,"body":"Um, the hydrogen is stored inthis solution, so we use one"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":858.247,"endTime":860.287,"body":"reactor to, to fulfill both"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":860.752,"endTime":861.292,"body":"Kevin: Great."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":861.412,"endTime":862.312,"body":"That that makes it"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":862.312,"endTime":863.182,"body":"way easier."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":863.463,"endTime":863.733,"body":"Jonas: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":863.733,"endTime":864.903,"body":"And, and cost efficient."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":865.023,"endTime":869.913,"body":"And cost efficient because at theend, um, hydrogen will be a commodity."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":870.153,"endTime":875.133,"body":"Therefore, we need a, a process thatis easy to scale with lowest cost."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":875.313,"endTime":875.613,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":875.703,"endTime":880.023,"body":"We basically have a, a pipewith our catalyst and we"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":880.023,"endTime":882.213,"body":"have a, a pump and a heater."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":882.213,"endTime":882.963,"body":"And that is how,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":883.008,"endTime":883.218,"body":"Kevin: Yeah,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":884.283,"endTime":885.033,"body":"Jonas: how the magic"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":885.078,"endTime":888.858,"body":"Kevin: and you don't even needthat big of temperature changes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":889.458,"endTime":895.128,"body":"That's also great when you think aboutHaber Bosch at like 200 bar, 300 degrees,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":895.878,"endTime":902.238,"body":"that's a lot of energy that, uh, is alsorequired for just the reaction conditions."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":903.663,"endTime":906.603,"body":"Jonas: And when we are lookingto decentralized application,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":906.603,"endTime":907.863,"body":"we will not have that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":908.553,"endTime":910.023,"body":"High temperature range."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":910.023,"endTime":910.173,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":910.173,"endTime":915.243,"body":"When we, when we are looking to a village,we might have some, some combustion"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":915.243,"endTime":921.573,"body":"engine for, um, burning hydrogento, to re electrify it, but then you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":921.573,"endTime":927.093,"body":"have excess heat about 100 degree orsomething like that, but not 300 degree."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":927.423,"endTime":930.903,"body":"So when we look to decentralizedapplication, we will not"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":930.903,"endTime":933.153,"body":"have that excess of heat."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":933.588,"endTime":938.598,"body":"At the location in contrast to a harboror a chemical plant, when you're looking"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":938.598,"endTime":945.048,"body":"to BASF or something like that, you willhave some, some processes that will have"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":945.168,"endTime":951.498,"body":"exhaust heat at at certain temperature,but not in decentralized applications."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":951.933,"endTime":956.943,"body":"Kevin: There you can rely on otherprocesses, but if you have to produce"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":956.943,"endTime":961.263,"body":"the temperature just for the process,then it's, it's more complicated."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":961.572,"endTime":968.977,"body":"Your process can then be used to havea hydrogen, like an electrolyzer,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":968.977,"endTime":975.457,"body":"for example, and then just, uh, alsodynamically use up what the Electrolyzer"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":975.457,"endTime":980.977,"body":"produces or, um, does it have tobe a continuous flow of hydrogen?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":981.902,"endTime":982.192,"body":"Jonas: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":982.627,"endTime":982.807,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":982.807,"endTime":988.137,"body":"As a chemical engineer, I like, uh,continuous flow of, of, of streams."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":988.497,"endTime":994.887,"body":"But in, in, in general, there, we havealso combined different technology because"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":994.887,"endTime":1001.217,"body":"we, we need a pressure tank to, to bufferthe, the fluctuation of electrolyzer."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1001.277,"endTime":1001.517,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1001.522,"endTime":1006.347,"body":"When we want to, to use ourchemical process to, to buffer this"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1006.347,"endTime":1010.637,"body":"fluctuation, we need to have a biggerreactor and therefore we are not."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1010.907,"endTime":1012.167,"body":"Cost efficient."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1012.557,"endTime":1018.197,"body":"When we have only a small buffer tank,we combine the, the advantages of this"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1018.197,"endTime":1020.837,"body":"system and couple it with our system."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1020.897,"endTime":1025.577,"body":"So we have a small buffer tank thatis able to, to get the fluctuation."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1025.577,"endTime":1029.987,"body":"And from that on, we, we have theconnection with our chemical process"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1029.987,"endTime":1031.852,"body":"to balance these fluctuation."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1033.637,"endTime":1033.877,"body":"Kevin: Interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1033.977,"endTime":1037.247,"body":"So, uh, you need also a gas storage, but."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1037.892,"endTime":1044.072,"body":"You can have that much smaller becauseyou use then your salt or salt water as"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1044.072,"endTime":1049.112,"body":"the actual storage, and then when youwant to produce something from it, you can"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1049.562,"endTime":1053.042,"body":"use the same reactor to convert it back."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1053.042,"endTime":1056.612,"body":"Or would you have, in that caseto reactors of the same kind?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1056.612,"endTime":1060.632,"body":"They just serve a different purpose,but the catalyst is the same."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1062.132,"endTime":1065.327,"body":"Jonas: Um, yeah, we havetwo different areas."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1065.372,"endTime":1068.057,"body":"The, the first one isstationary application."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1068.057,"endTime":1072.017,"body":"There we will have only onereactor to fulfill both reaction."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1072.197,"endTime":1074.687,"body":"And the second way isthe transport sector."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1074.867,"endTime":1075.047,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1075.047,"endTime":1080.237,"body":"There you imagine in an area witha lot of renewables, maybe Middle"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1080.237,"endTime":1081.587,"body":"East or something like that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1081.767,"endTime":1085.037,"body":"And there you put only aplant that is able to store."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1085.607,"endTime":1087.587,"body":"To store hydrogen within the salts."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1087.887,"endTime":1090.317,"body":"Therefore, you needonly the hydrogenation,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1090.497,"endTime":1090.947,"body":"Kevin: of course."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1091.307,"endTime":1096.094,"body":"Jonas: um, process and only acatalyst that is specifically"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1096.094,"endTime":1097.894,"body":"improved to handle this."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1098.464,"endTime":1103.594,"body":"And, and then you ship the salts to alocation where the demand is higher."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1104.374,"endTime":1109.534,"body":"Maybe Germany and there you need onlya plan to that is able to produce the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1109.534,"endTime":1112.144,"body":"hydrogen out of the salts or release it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1112.474,"endTime":1116.044,"body":"And then you have only, theyare the de hydrogenation step."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1116.884,"endTime":1117.034,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1117.034,"endTime":1121.234,"body":"I think when it comes, because oneof the processes needs to be heated,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1121.234,"endTime":1122.764,"body":"the other one needs to be cooled."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1123.754,"endTime":1128.584,"body":"It's easier to, or not easier, it's moreefficient to have it really dialed in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1128.584,"endTime":1134.014,"body":"on these conditions if you want just toproduce the salt on one place and then."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1134.644,"endTime":1138.694,"body":"Convert it back on the other place,then you don't need on the production"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1138.694,"endTime":1142.234,"body":"side where you have to cool it right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1142.384,"endTime":1144.039,"body":"Then you don't reallyneed the heating part."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1144.652,"endTime":1144.95,"body":"Jonas: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1145.16,"endTime":1145.43,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1145.46,"endTime":1152.095,"body":"But the cooling on the other side, it's,it's so low because we use water and that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1152.56,"endTime":1158.41,"body":"It is only tempered slightly andthen came out with a temperature of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1158.68,"endTime":1160.75,"body":"40 degrees or something like that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1160.75,"endTime":1163.985,"body":"So that is not the, thebiggest part to cool it down."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1164.755,"endTime":1165.145,"body":"Kevin: Okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1165.205,"endTime":1168.655,"body":"Then that makes the wholeprocess really lean."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1169.225,"endTime":1175.21,"body":"I guess you don't need a lotof, uh, fans or stuff like that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1175.882,"endTime":1176.122,"body":"Jonas: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1176.122,"endTime":1179.602,"body":"And you also can imagine twodifferent state of matter."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1179.872,"endTime":1180.382,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1180.502,"endTime":1186.322,"body":"The one is the solid salt itself and thesecond one is the salt within solution."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1186.682,"endTime":1191.152,"body":"And, and these two differentstates of matter can be also"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1191.152,"endTime":1192.712,"body":"used in different application."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1192.772,"endTime":1193.072,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1193.162,"endTime":1197.332,"body":"When we looking to transport,we need a higher energy density,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1197.422,"endTime":1200.062,"body":"therefore solid will be more."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1200.607,"endTime":1205.827,"body":"Um, efficient and when we are lookingto decentralized, um, application"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1205.977,"endTime":1211.077,"body":"solution, it's the way to go becausethere the efficiency is way higher."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1211.857,"endTime":1216.837,"body":"So when we need a high efficiency,especially in in storage application"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1216.837,"endTime":1221.037,"body":"for stationary application, thenwe will take it in solution."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1221.157,"endTime":1226.587,"body":"And when we need to transport it, we willcrystallize the salt out of the water."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1226.767,"endTime":1232.558,"body":"That is a energy inefficient process,but therefore we increase the energy"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1232.618,"endTime":1234.658,"body":"density to, to make a transport."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1235.063,"endTime":1235.303,"body":"Kevin: No."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1235.393,"endTime":1235.753,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1235.933,"endTime":1237.703,"body":"Do you need to get rid of the water?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1237.703,"endTime":1240.343,"body":"And that's always energy intensive."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1240.403,"endTime":1243.073,"body":"But if you compare it toliquefying hydrogen, that's."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1243.748,"endTime":1247.563,"body":"Is that about the same,or what would you think?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1247.593,"endTime":1249.163,"body":"Need needs more energy."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1250.378,"endTime":1250.888,"body":"Jonas: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1251.188,"endTime":1257.038,"body":"Um, liquid hydrogen carrier or, or liquidhydrogen itself, it's way, um, energy"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1257.038,"endTime":1262.948,"body":"intensive than in our case because whenwe are looking to, to the unloaded salt"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1262.948,"endTime":1268.648,"body":"itself, um, purchasing bicarbonate, thatis way easier to get out of the solution"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1268.678,"endTime":1271.178,"body":"because the solubility is, is low."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1271.228,"endTime":1274.828,"body":"Therefore, we have only to coolit slightly and then the potassium"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1274.828,"endTime":1276.388,"body":"bicarbonate will participate."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1277.228,"endTime":1279.598,"body":"When we look into the format salt."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1280.003,"endTime":1285.793,"body":"Um, maybe a higher concentration ofthis solution is, is a proper solution."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1286.033,"endTime":1290.623,"body":"And when we looking at this locationfor transportation, this is the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1290.623,"endTime":1292.693,"body":"area of high access of energy."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1292.933,"endTime":1293.083,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1293.083,"endTime":1298.783,"body":"When we looking to Middle East and weneed heat to crystallize or to, to,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1298.813,"endTime":1303.823,"body":"to concentrate the solution there,the energy is available and, and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1303.913,"endTime":1308.728,"body":"especially heat is available to, to,to concentrate the solution or to."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1310.258,"endTime":1312.178,"body":"To make it in a solid way."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1312.718,"endTime":1316.228,"body":"Kevin: so you can crystallize itactually from the solution instead"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1316.228,"endTime":1318.628,"body":"of having to evaporate all the water."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1320.398,"endTime":1320.668,"body":"Jonas: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1320.668,"endTime":1320.878,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1320.878,"endTime":1322.228,"body":"This is one option, right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1322.588,"endTime":1323.098,"body":"Kevin: Interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1323.698,"endTime":1328.318,"body":"I thought that you would have to evaporateall the water, like when you get the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1328.318,"endTime":1332.158,"body":"sodium chloride from, from sea water."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1332.623,"endTime":1336.733,"body":"Jonas: No, this is the thethermodynamically worst thing"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1336.733,"endTime":1338.983,"body":"you can do to ever avoid water."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1338.998,"endTime":1345.388,"body":"Kevin: That's, uh, already one,uh, good example for the shipping."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1345.388,"endTime":1347.368,"body":"The salt makes it much easier."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1347.848,"endTime":1353.13,"body":"And let's talk about anotheraspect is also the safety part."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1353.25,"endTime":1357.429,"body":"We have already touched a bit on that,but, for example, when a farmer or."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1358.314,"endTime":1364.584,"body":"Whatever has a few wind turbinesand solar panels and uh, they cannot"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1365.064,"endTime":1367.614,"body":"use all the hydrogen directly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1367.614,"endTime":1371.124,"body":"They want to keep some forthe winter, for example."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1371.244,"endTime":1374.349,"body":"How could they do thatwith your technology?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1374.877,"endTime":1380.414,"body":"Jonas: And then he, um, order a flatbottom tank, uh, a big flat bottom tank"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1380.624,"endTime":1386.534,"body":"put in our salt solution and connectingthis flat bottom tank to our container."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1386.534,"endTime":1389.474,"body":"And within the containerthere is the chemical plant."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1389.882,"endTime":1395.492,"body":"Therefore you see the, the bigadvantage because the, the flat bottom"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1395.492,"endTime":1398.216,"body":"tank   itself is state of the art."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1398.216,"endTime":1405.326,"body":"And the farmer can handle service on thisflat bottom tank without any fear of, of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1406.166,"endTime":1410.816,"body":"getting him, um, an issue with hydrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1411.146,"endTime":1415.421,"body":"And, and within our container, there's theonly part where hydrogen occurs and, and."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1416.456,"endTime":1420.712,"body":"That is maintenance dueto us or with, our mt."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1420.986,"endTime":1427.061,"body":"Kevin: So we can avoid big pressurizedtanks, which are also sometimes a hazard."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1427.562,"endTime":1427.832,"body":"Jonas: Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1427.832,"endTime":1428.222,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1428.282,"endTime":1434.012,"body":"And, and we ensure that only the, thedangerous part is encapsuled within a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1434.012,"endTime":1438.722,"body":"certain container that the farmer is notthinking, oh yeah, I would repair it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1439.727,"endTime":1446.537,"body":"And, and that, yeah, that is a big impactbecause when, when the farmer hit itself"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1447.047,"endTime":1454.307,"body":"due to any, due to any, um, hydrogenthat occurs, that will be, uh, bad news"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1454.307,"endTime":1460.277,"body":"and therefore the whole, um, technologywill have a problem when such a bad news."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1460.862,"endTime":1461.932,"body":"Come to the world."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1462.472,"endTime":1463.792,"body":"We see it for Tesla."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1463.852,"endTime":1464.092,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1464.422,"endTime":1468.862,"body":"When the, then, when thefirst Tesla cars, um, burns"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1469.022,"endTime":1469.312,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1469.737,"endTime":1472.492,"body":"Jonas: the, the stockprices of Tesla goes down."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1472.492,"endTime":1478.942,"body":"And, and this is a big problem for newtechnology, um, when bad news occurred"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1478.942,"endTime":1481.222,"body":"due to any personnel that is insured."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1481.642,"endTime":1482.732,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, yeah, definitely."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1483.352,"endTime":1489.952,"body":"And the hydrogen economy is just scalingso any big bad news like this would"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1489.952,"endTime":1495.652,"body":"also not only have a problem for thecompanies involved, but also for the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1495.904,"endTime":1497.974,"body":"hydrogen economy at large, I think."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1498.484,"endTime":1499.054,"body":"Jonas: Right, right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1499.204,"endTime":1504.034,"body":"And especially when we are looking to, tohydrogen and the risk analysis of hydrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1504.034,"endTime":1510.064,"body":"infrastructure, we see that, um, most ofthe accidents occur within the storage,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1510.334,"endTime":1511.444,"body":"um, infrastructure."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1511.834,"endTime":1517.609,"body":"So mainly 68% of these occurringin the part of the storage process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1518.509,"endTime":1519.144,"body":"Kevin: Oh, okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1519.594,"endTime":1525.414,"body":"Jonas: Therefore it's, it's not only anice to have, it's a real world problem"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1525.414,"endTime":1529.584,"body":"within the hydrogen infrastructurethat when an accident occur, it,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1529.764,"endTime":1532.014,"body":"it's often explosion of fire or both."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1532.783,"endTime":1533.203,"body":"Kevin: Oh, okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1533.203,"endTime":1535.273,"body":"That, that was new to me, that that's, uh."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1536.068,"endTime":1538.918,"body":"A lot of this is happening inthe infrastructure and not at"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1538.918,"endTime":1542.038,"body":"the production or usage sites."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1543.298,"endTime":1547.348,"body":"And it's even better than to have asafe technology in that part where"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1547.348,"endTime":1549.958,"body":"the most accidents could happen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1550.216,"endTime":1550.336,"body":"Jonas: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1550.336,"endTime":1550.726,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1550.996,"endTime":1551.296,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1551.941,"endTime":1552.811,"body":"Kevin: That sounds great."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1553.231,"endTime":1559.201,"body":"And um, you already talked aboutscaling, uh, your technology."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1559.425,"endTime":1561.345,"body":"What are you currently working on?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1562.155,"endTime":1563.325,"body":"To, yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1563.385,"endTime":1565.215,"body":"Better scale this, uh, technology."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1566.81,"endTime":1566.99,"body":"Jonas: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1566.99,"endTime":1571.76,"body":"Right now we working on a containerized,um, solution of our plant."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1571.76,"endTime":1578,"body":"So we starting with a small labplant to, to show it that it work"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1578.33,"endTime":1584.63,"body":"and now we scale it up to containersized and there we focusing on get it"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1584.63,"endTime":1588.05,"body":"certification on this, um, container that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1588.465,"endTime":1589.965,"body":"That is a real product."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1590.055,"endTime":1590.385,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1590.655,"endTime":1594.855,"body":"To go to the market and tell ourcustomer, yeah, we have a product."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1594.855,"endTime":1596.835,"body":"This is CE certified."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1596.835,"endTime":1602.085,"body":"You can buy it as a planned and andconnect it with your flat bottom tank"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1602.085,"endTime":1604.725,"body":"and, and store hydrogen in a safe manner."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1604.935,"endTime":1610.485,"body":"This is, right now our goal and we havea small team that take part of the whole."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1610.875,"endTime":1615.705,"body":"Um, the whole different parts ofthe technology from the catalyst"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1615.705,"endTime":1621.975,"body":"development over basic engineering ofnew processes to detailed engineering"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1621.975,"endTime":1627.015,"body":"of the container with all the pipingand, and optimization and so on."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1627.345,"endTime":1631.395,"body":"So we have a small team of engineersthat take part on the whole"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1631.55,"endTime":1631.97,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1632.865,"endTime":1638.04,"body":"So can I imagine that like thesestandardized shipping containers or what"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1638.145,"endTime":1642.585,"body":"Jonas: Yeah, it's a, it's a40 foot container and we cut"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1642.585,"endTime":1645.225,"body":"it with, uh, in two parts."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1645.225,"endTime":1650.445,"body":"The first part is a 30 foot container,and the second part is 10 foot container."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1650.625,"endTime":1656.565,"body":"Within the 10 foot container with allthe, the electrical stuff and the 30 foot"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1656.565,"endTime":1661.065,"body":"container are the apparatus to, to getthe hydrogen in and out of the system."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1661.665,"endTime":1667.565,"body":"And then we can ship this container,um, park to to our cotomers."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1667.635,"endTime":1668.055,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1669.05,"endTime":1674.21,"body":"And then, uh, would the approach beto just have multiple containers if"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1674.21,"endTime":1675.89,"body":"you scale a plant, or would you then."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1676.58,"endTime":1680.54,"body":"Have a new concept, which can Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1680.54,"endTime":1682.475,"body":"Which has a bigger plant in general."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1683.174,"endTime":1689.174,"body":"Jonas: No, then we will scale up our, um,our reactor and the whole plant itself"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1689.594,"endTime":1695.474,"body":"because, um, numbering up is, it's agood way, but only in a certain size."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1695.834,"endTime":1699.914,"body":"And, and from that on, you needto, to scale up the reactor itself."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1700.304,"endTime":1704.864,"body":"And with, with a fixed bit,um, reactor that is easy,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1705.384,"endTime":1705.594,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1706.244,"endTime":1707.294,"body":"Jonas: easy to scale it up."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1707.784,"endTime":1710.814,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, because I was thinking abit about the electrolyzers and there,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1710.814,"endTime":1717.395,"body":"it's a common way also until a certain,uh, extent, but still there's a lot of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1717.395,"endTime":1721.685,"body":"these containerized solutions where youjust put more of them next to each other"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1722.355,"endTime":1722.565,"body":"Jonas: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1722.925,"endTime":1723.195,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1723.525,"endTime":1727.395,"body":"And, and this is our next, afterthe container, after we finished"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1727.395,"endTime":1731.385,"body":"the container, our next goal isto, to build a megawatt plant."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1731.385,"endTime":1735.195,"body":"And with this megawatt plant ofhydrogen release and storage,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1735.195,"endTime":1737.685,"body":"we will have a bigger reactor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1738.405,"endTime":1744.765,"body":"So we talking about four to five, sixcubic meters to, to build this plant."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1745.305,"endTime":1748.845,"body":"Cubic meters for the reactor,for the catalyst packaging."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1749.205,"endTime":1749.83,"body":"Kevin: Oh, okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1750.16,"endTime":1752.77,"body":"So, uh, you said one megawatt of."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1753.745,"endTime":1756.295,"body":"Storage in and out capacity, or"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1757.33,"endTime":1761.62,"body":"Jonas: Yeah, that is roughlyat this time one cubic meter to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1761.62,"endTime":1763.72,"body":"two cubic meter of the catalyst"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1763.96,"endTime":1764.38,"body":"Kevin: mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1764.866,"endTime":1765.156,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1765.416,"endTime":1770.606,"body":"Jonas: but we see that our customerswill prefer three to four megawatt"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1770.786,"endTime":1771.236,"body":"plants."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1772.511,"endTime":1777.371,"body":"Kevin: Or for really large scale, Imean, the electrolyzers are slowly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1778.211,"endTime":1783.101,"body":"Getting bigger and bigger, but,uh, yeah, that's also still"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1783.521,"endTime":1785.651,"body":"in the process of scaling."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1785.651,"endTime":1787.121,"body":"And then it's more"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1787.121,"endTime":1787.601,"body":"like"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1787.676,"endTime":1791.996,"body":"Jonas: And we are able to scale withthe market in, in different sizes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1792.386,"endTime":1798.596,"body":"So when the first, uh, megawatt projectwill be evolve, or 100 megawatt or one"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1798.596,"endTime":1803.246,"body":"gigawatt, when we're talking about thebig hydrogen transport, we are looking for"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1803.246,"endTime":1806.666,"body":"to, to scale our technology to, to this"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1807.176,"endTime":1807.566,"body":"scale."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1808.226,"endTime":1814.776,"body":"Kevin: One, uh, metric is the amountof hydrogen you can take in and out."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1814.776,"endTime":1821.166,"body":"But the other one would be how muchhydrogen you can store in one place."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1821.196,"endTime":1824.706,"body":"And that's kind ofdecoupled from your reactor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1824.706,"endTime":1825.006,"body":"Is it?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1825.243,"endTime":1825.513,"body":"Jonas: Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1825.513,"endTime":1825.753,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1825.753,"endTime":1831.933,"body":"And that is the, the cool thing aboutour technology, because we can decouple"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1831.993,"endTime":1835.323,"body":"the, the capacity from the release power."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1835.653,"endTime":1835.923,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1836.223,"endTime":1840.063,"body":"When we are looking toa battery there, that is"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1840.063,"endTime":1840.633,"body":"coupled."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1841.053,"endTime":1841.413,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1841.503,"endTime":1845.283,"body":"When you want to, to have thedouble, the capacity, you have"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1845.283,"endTime":1847.713,"body":"to double the, the cells itself."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1848.006,"endTime":1853.976,"body":"And, and with our system, we can build areactor that is able to produce a certain"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1853.976,"endTime":1859.196,"body":"amount of hydrogen, and the customeritself can choose if the flat bottom tank"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1859.196,"endTime":1865.911,"body":"has 200 cubic meters, 1000 cubic meters,or if you want to to store even more."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1866.726,"endTime":1867.326,"body":"Kevin: Interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1867.386,"endTime":1875.004,"body":"So this seasonal storage for in summeryou have a lot of, um, photovoltaics,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1875.504,"endTime":1881.284,"body":"produce a lot of hydrogen or use theelectricity directly, but then you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1881.284,"endTime":1887.974,"body":"can, uh, use your, um, invention tobasically store a lot, but you don't"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1888.004,"endTime":1891.369,"body":"need to get it all out in one step."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1891.537,"endTime":1892.378,"body":"Jonas: No no."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1892.54,"endTime":1896.86,"body":"So you, you can charge it ordischarge it when you want."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1897.88,"endTime":1902.62,"body":"So we can easily switch the processand then you charge or discharge"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1903.01,"endTime":1907.9,"body":"and, and then you can only discharge10% of your hydrogen battery, I"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1907.9,"endTime":1910.18,"body":"would say, and then start again."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1910.18,"endTime":1911.8,"body":"So that is not the problem."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1912.07,"endTime":1917.53,"body":"And then we have to make a simulationwith every customer, how big the tank"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1917.53,"endTime":1924.16,"body":"should be, um, due to the demand profileof the customer and, and the, the."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1924.595,"endTime":1929.875,"body":"Injection profile of the customer,and then we scale the reactor, um,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1929.875,"endTime":1934.528,"body":"and the tank differently preciselyon the demand that the customer had."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1934.806,"endTime":1938.286,"body":"Kevin: So you also help them tochoose what kind of size of reactor"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1938.286,"endTime":1941.691,"body":"and tank they would need themdepending on their energy profile."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1942.028,"endTime":1942.328,"body":"Jonas: Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1942.328,"endTime":1942.628,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1942.759,"endTime":1946.551,"body":"And there we, we looking forwardto different energy profiles."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1946.551,"endTime":1946.731,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1946.731,"endTime":1951.056,"body":"When you are looking to, maybesteel manufacturer, they have a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1951.056,"endTime":1958.586,"body":"completely different profile, namelycontinuously in, in contrast to any."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1959.011,"endTime":1960.511,"body":"Village or something like that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1960.541,"endTime":1960.871,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1961.051,"endTime":1967.051,"body":"There you have seasonal effects or,or day-to-day, um, effects and, and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1967.051,"endTime":1972.721,"body":"then that is a different profile witha different system in the background."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1973.841,"endTime":1974.201,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1974.291,"endTime":1979.001,"body":"Probably also a lot of optimizationpossible there with all these new."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1979.601,"endTime":1981.101,"body":"KI Technologies."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1982.121,"endTime":1982.391,"body":"Jonas: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1982.391,"endTime":1982.661,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1982.661,"endTime":1983.201,"body":"Right, right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1983.201,"endTime":1988.481,"body":"With all the new technologies inregard to artificial intelligent, in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1988.481,"endTime":1990.881,"body":"system design, it's a big advantage."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1990.881,"endTime":1992.651,"body":"And also in, in catalyst"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1992.926,"endTime":1993.346,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1994.151,"endTime":1994.421,"body":"Jonas: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1994.841,"endTime":2002.011,"body":"Because, um, heterogeneous catalysts ismainly trial and error, and when we can."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2002.596,"endTime":2008.056,"body":"Have a likely a solution dueto to artificial intelligence."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2008.116,"endTime":2012.493,"body":"Our trial and error processis way, way more efficient."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2012.59,"endTime":2013.07,"body":"Kevin: Interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2013.07,"endTime":2013.73,"body":"So are you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2013.73,"endTime":2019.75,"body":"using, um, these kind of, computersupported, um, research applications"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2019.75,"endTime":2021.37,"body":"for your catalyst research?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2021.906,"endTime":2026.496,"body":"Jonas: Yeah, we starting to includeit in our, um, research because"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2026.496,"endTime":2032.076,"body":"we see the advantages and, andalso in the whole AI community."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2032.076,"endTime":2033.775,"body":"We, we, start to, to now."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2034.14,"endTime":2039.96,"body":"Develop, um, technology or workflowwhere we can integrate it in our"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2039.96,"endTime":2045.42,"body":"labs to, to have a sufficientway to, to get to the goal."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2046.06,"endTime":2046.21,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2046.21,"endTime":2051.854,"body":"I imagine there's also great to beat the Likat, which is good at the,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2051.914,"endTime":2053.774,"body":"all this, uh, catalysis research."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2053.774,"endTime":2058.514,"body":"I've been there for months, uh, duringmy PhD and it was really impressive"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2058.514,"endTime":2063.689,"body":"to see what all instrumentation andall their expertise in, in catalysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2064.769,"endTime":2068.879,"body":"Jonas: Yeah, and sitting at the LeibnizInstitute for Catalysts is one of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2068.879,"endTime":2074.369,"body":"the biggest opportunities to, to getin touch with all the new inventions"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2074.369,"endTime":2078.989,"body":"and, and with all the differentpossibilities in Catalyst research."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2078.989,"endTime":2082.229,"body":"Therefore, we are lookingforward to, to working together."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2082.754,"endTime":2087.064,"body":"In, in the future to, to enhanceour speed of of development."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2087.134,"endTime":2087.374,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2088.204,"endTime":2095.009,"body":"What is, in your opinion now, thebiggest challenge that you are facing to."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2095.609,"endTime":2097.454,"body":"Bring your technology to the market."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2099.374,"endTime":2102.314,"body":"Jonas: Right now, the biggestchallenge is the market itself"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2102.374,"endTime":2105.764,"body":"because hydrogen is evolving very."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2106.611,"endTime":2107.361,"body":"Very slow."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2108.321,"endTime":2112.161,"body":"And, and this is the bigproblem, especially for startups."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2112.161,"endTime":2112.401,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2112.821,"endTime":2117.111,"body":"Because a time of yourinvention matters most."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2117.411,"endTime":2122.511,"body":"And, and right now we're seeingTrump going to the, to the UN"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2122.511,"endTime":2124.971,"body":"and climate change is a hoax."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2124.971,"endTime":2128.451,"body":"That is not a good, um,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2128.901,"endTime":2129.231,"body":"Kevin: Yeah,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2129.531,"endTime":2134.871,"body":"Jonas: that are not a good place to befor, for climate startups right now."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2135.291,"endTime":2137.811,"body":"Kevin: it's this, uh, hydrogen hype."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2138.471,"endTime":2143.271,"body":"I would say it's a bit over, but on manyconferences there were also people saying,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2143.301,"endTime":2148.591,"body":"okay, now we get into this realism phasewhere we can actually get to work and."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2149.886,"endTime":2156.876,"body":"Don't have all this, uh, blinding lightsand prophecies going on that say we use"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2156.876,"endTime":2159.666,"body":"hydrogen for everything and everywhere."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2159.876,"endTime":2164.076,"body":"And now it's getting morerealistic in the use cases."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2164.076,"endTime":2168.996,"body":"Which technologies really needhydrogen, where maybe we should"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2169.176,"endTime":2171.006,"body":"directly electrify and such."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2171.006,"endTime":2172.185,"body":"So I think it's"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2172.245,"endTime":2176.944,"body":"not over, but it's getting morerealistic and you can plan better."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2176.974,"endTime":2177.394,"body":"Jonas: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2177.799,"endTime":2182.839,"body":"And, and we see that we will needhydrogen in certain application,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2183.019,"endTime":2187.579,"body":"especially to decarbonize steelmanufacturing or something like that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2187.849,"endTime":2191.449,"body":"We need hydrogen to, to bethe molecule of the future."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2191.869,"endTime":2197.269,"body":"So, so we think that hydrogen willtake a part of the world in the future,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2197.569,"endTime":2199.939,"body":"but right now it's, it's hard times"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2200.17,"endTime":2200.56,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2200.916,"endTime":2206.696,"body":"One of the biggest, um, challenge wherethere's basically no way around hydrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2206.696,"endTime":2213.956,"body":"is the seasonal storage of electricitythat we need to take our, uh, wind and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2214.196,"endTime":2219.536,"body":"solar energy from the summer to thewinter where we need it for heat and such."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2219.536,"endTime":2221.216,"body":"And I think that's where."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2221.891,"endTime":2226.091,"body":"Storage technologies like yours arereally important and could really"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2226.091,"endTime":2232.708,"body":"help Germany or other countries tokeep most of their electricity that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2232.708,"endTime":2236.218,"body":"they otherwise would, uh, not use."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2236.636,"endTime":2236.906,"body":"Jonas: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2236.906,"endTime":2237.146,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2237.146,"endTime":2237.446,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2237.746,"endTime":2241.136,"body":"And when we, especiallylooking to the cost."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2241.136,"endTime":2241.496,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2242.156,"endTime":2246.981,"body":"Lithium ion battery are way expensivein, in contrast to our sort."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2247.631,"endTime":2254.291,"body":"So they are 10 times, uh, more cost,uh, more cost with lithium ion battery,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2254.681,"endTime":2256.631,"body":"uh, batteries in contrast to our"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2256.631,"endTime":2257.471,"body":"technology."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2258.011,"endTime":2262.871,"body":"Therefore, it's also a big costdifferences when we want to store hydrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2262.871,"endTime":2265.121,"body":"or energy in, uh, in the long term."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2265.431,"endTime":2268.671,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, and it's also whenyou can use energy that otherwise"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2268.671,"endTime":2271.131,"body":"would just be not gained."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2271.131,"endTime":2273.111,"body":"For example, when you turn off."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2274.401,"endTime":2279.171,"body":"Lacking the right word here, but turnoff the wind turbine, then it's energy"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2279.171,"endTime":2281.091,"body":"that otherwise would just be wasted."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2281.931,"endTime":2282.201,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2282.441,"endTime":2286.821,"body":"And then it's not really the, theefficiency still plays a role, but"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2286.821,"endTime":2288.851,"body":"it's not that great of a deal.."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2289.231,"endTime":2289.501,"body":"Jonas: Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2289.501,"endTime":2294.331,"body":"In the H2Apex company, I give acrash course about hydrogen and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2294.331,"endTime":2299.221,"body":"there I always talk about my grandmaand their, their cherry um, tree."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2299.701,"endTime":2304.051,"body":"And I say, okay, my grandma hasa cherry tree and she wants that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2304.051,"endTime":2307.051,"body":"I eat her cherries all the time."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2307.471,"endTime":2313.861,"body":"Yeah, in the winter, in the summer,or in my home or in her location."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2313.861,"endTime":2319.981,"body":"And what she do, she, she get thecherries, put it on her kitchen and, and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2319.981,"endTime":2322.711,"body":"turn on the heating plate at full power."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2323.161,"endTime":2323.311,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2323.311,"endTime":2328.021,"body":"My grandma doesn't take anyefficiency into account and that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2328.021,"endTime":2331.141,"body":"shows when we have such a, such a."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2333.181,"endTime":2339.061,"body":"Such a substance, like, like the cherriesor renewable energy that are fluctuating"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2339.061,"endTime":2345.181,"body":"in time on location, we need to, tostart and therefore we, we take into"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2345.181,"endTime":2348.061,"body":"part that that will cost, um, energy"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2348.721,"endTime":2351.416,"body":"to to concentrate it in time and, and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2351.822,"endTime":2351.982,"body":"location."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2352.172,"endTime":2353.372,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, that's a great example."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2353.372,"endTime":2353.462,"body":"And."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2354.469,"endTime":2359.899,"body":"What I also think is reallyinteresting is that you started with"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2359.899,"endTime":2366.681,"body":"your startup and to bring this newtechnology a completely new approach."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2366.681,"endTime":2372.681,"body":"So it's not like, uh, some other bigplayers are already in this, um, as"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2372.681,"endTime":2378.531,"body":"I think, and that's really inspiringalso for, uh, scientists to bring"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2378.531,"endTime":2380.931,"body":"their technology to the market."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2381.531,"endTime":2385.971,"body":"Um, when you started withthe, your startup, uh, what."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2387.306,"endTime":2391.001,"body":"Made you think, oh, maybe we shouldbring this to the market on our own."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2391.644,"endTime":2394.734,"body":"Jonas: Especially the,the, the low toxicity."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2394.734,"endTime":2400.074,"body":"So when you have it in your handand you see, okay, that I can give"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2400.074,"endTime":2405.144,"body":"my grandma and, and she can takepart of the energy transition, that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2405.144,"endTime":2408.714,"body":"was my, my aha moment on this part."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2408.714,"endTime":2413.994,"body":"That, that our solution is able to,to hand over to a normal person."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2414.379,"endTime":2414.619,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2415.014,"endTime":2419.639,"body":"Jonas: And that is the, the part thatI imagine of a future where, where"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2419.934,"endTime":2425.424,"body":"we can take part as normal humanbeings in the energy transition."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2425.659,"endTime":2427.794,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, that's avery interesting point."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2428.209,"endTime":2428.669,"body":"And, um."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2429.309,"endTime":2434.739,"body":"Maybe do we have some tips forother researchers when they want"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2434.739,"endTime":2440.649,"body":"to bring their, um, research toapplication what they should do"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2441.155,"endTime":2446.225,"body":"Jonas: Try to, to get in contact withdifferent customers or person that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2446.225,"endTime":2451.805,"body":"need that technology to, to test ifyour, if your approach is good or not."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2452.24,"endTime":2457.07,"body":"So you, you can only test it whenyou go out and talk with people,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2457.07,"endTime":2459.29,"body":"interact with, with customers."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2459.29,"endTime":2462.08,"body":"Then you find out,okay, is there a market?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2462.08,"endTime":2464,"body":"Is the technology good or not?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2464.3,"endTime":2467.9,"body":"When you're only sitting in yourchamber and think about it, that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2467.9,"endTime":2472.4,"body":"is cool, but, but nevertheless, youcannot, um, see the whole picture."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2472.4,"endTime":2476.87,"body":"And, and when you go out and,and test your, simply test"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2476.87,"endTime":2479.45,"body":"your invention, then, um."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2480.005,"endTime":2481.895,"body":"You see the, the feedback"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2482.05,"endTime":2483.42,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, definitely."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2484.04,"endTime":2484.775,"body":"We need to."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2485.39,"endTime":2490.88,"body":"Get into the doing and not just thetheory part where we, uh, we could do"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2490.88,"endTime":2495.86,"body":"all this, it's just actually trying stuffand then see if people would respond,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2496.132,"endTime":2496.462,"body":"Jonas: right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2496.762,"endTime":2502.144,"body":"And, yeah, from technology side, youwill always have the The best approach."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2502.144,"endTime":2502.354,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2502.354,"endTime":2505.504,"body":"The best catalyst and thebest apparatus and so on."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2505.649,"endTime":2512.344,"body":"But I. We do not take into account that wehave to go to the market and we need the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2512.344,"endTime":2518.434,"body":"customer and then we can further improveour technology, our catalyst and so on."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2518.674,"endTime":2523.234,"body":"But we have to, to go into the market,otherwise the big industry with all."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2523.234,"endTime":2527.104,"body":"And so we'll choose startcontinu with their technologies."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2527.154,"endTime":2527.524,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2528.064,"endTime":2530.404,"body":"And, uh, when should you do this?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2530.404,"endTime":2531.484,"body":"Contacting people?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2531.847,"endTime":2533.407,"body":"In what stage of the research?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2533.765,"endTime":2538.175,"body":"Jonas: I think at the earliest stateof the research research, because you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2538.175,"endTime":2544.385,"body":"often get some insights, we, we ourselvesstarted with homogeneous catalysts"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2544.865,"endTime":2548.765,"body":"and, and then you figured out, okay,yeah, we have some problems with the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2548.765,"endTime":2551.405,"body":"catalyst because it's in the solution."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2551.495,"endTime":2557.584,"body":"We cannot separate it, um, from thesolution and therefore it's all."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2558.514,"endTime":2564.364,"body":"And you cannot stop the reaction whenyou want to transport the, the media"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2564.364,"endTime":2566.644,"body":"itself because the catalyst is inside."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2566.704,"endTime":2572.014,"body":"And then at the earliest point oftechnology decisions that you should"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2572.494,"endTime":2576.304,"body":"do, then you have the interactionand find out, okay, you need the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2576.304,"endTime":2581.074,"body":"system where you can easily transportthe, the media without the catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2581.374,"endTime":2585.424,"body":"Then you take the decision, okay,you, you have to choose another"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2585.424,"endTime":2587.254,"body":"technology approach to, to."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2588.199,"endTime":2589.819,"body":"To, to, to do that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2590.149,"endTime":2595.879,"body":"Therefore, I think to interact assoon as possible, prevent, doing"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2595.879,"endTime":2598.279,"body":"false decision in the technology"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2599.029,"endTime":2603.949,"body":"Kevin: And also I think interdisciplinarywork is important that the chemists"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2603.949,"endTime":2609.049,"body":"should talk to engineers like youwho probably spot problems that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2609.284,"endTime":2612.739,"body":"chemists just don't think aboutbecause it's not in their studies."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2612.829,"endTime":2613.519,"body":"And then,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2614.224,"endTime":2618.844,"body":"Jonas: Or to economics, because atthe end it's all about economics."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2619.504,"endTime":2619.744,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2619.744,"endTime":2625.619,"body":"You, You, have to, to invent somethingthat is, um, cost efficient and, and, and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2625.999,"endTime":2632.6,"body":"the, the economics, The, the economistsitself, they, they do not understand"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2632.6,"endTime":2638.21,"body":"your technology in all the differentdetails, and that doesn't matter because"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2638.39,"endTime":2643.46,"body":"they are focusing on, on how you get iton the market, in the market and so on."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2643.76,"endTime":2649.46,"body":"And then you can, can readapt yourtechnology due to the different,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2649.52,"endTime":2652.82,"body":"um, various economic wise."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2653.885,"endTime":2654.155,"body":"Kevin: definitely."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2654.155,"endTime":2657.665,"body":"And then you need to learn howto communicate all your technical"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2657.665,"endTime":2662.165,"body":"stuff to other people who are notthat much into the technical stuff."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2663.575,"endTime":2663.845,"body":"Jonas: Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2663.845,"endTime":2664.265,"body":"Great."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2664.31,"endTime":2668.48,"body":"Kevin: That's probably also whatyour job is in your company, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2670.205,"endTime":2676.145,"body":"Jonas: Right to to, to have a team, to,to push the team to new, um, levels and,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2676.145,"endTime":2682.325,"body":"and also to explain the technology toothers and, and to, to get interaction"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2682.325,"endTime":2688.244,"body":"with, with different person to get newideas to, further develop our technology."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2689.219,"endTime":2689.489,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2689.489,"endTime":2689.879,"body":"Great."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2689.909,"endTime":2695.159,"body":"Then, um, I think we can come toan end of, uh, this discussion"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2695.519,"endTime":2697.649,"body":"with my, uh, closing question."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2697.979,"endTime":2701.429,"body":"That is, what is your favoritediscovery in chemistry?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2702.396,"endTime":2702.636,"body":"Jonas: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2702.636,"endTime":2707.706,"body":"My favorite discovery in chemistryis about material science."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2708.126,"endTime":2710.616,"body":"Yeah, you, you know, the light bulb."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2711.141,"endTime":2716.931,"body":"From Edison and, and when we are lookingto the approach, how you, how he get"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2716.931,"endTime":2721.941,"body":"the, the best light bulp for that isworking properly over a long time."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2722.361,"endTime":2729.05,"body":"He has a trial and error approach withthousands of experiments and that show"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2729.05,"endTime":2736.22,"body":"that, uh, invention is not, uh, a thingthat, that comes or sometimes comes"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2736.22,"endTime":2738.62,"body":"out of the box, but sometimes need."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2740.225,"endTime":2746.735,"body":"Um, over a long time doing the samestuff and testing a lot of materials."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2746.825,"endTime":2751.135,"body":"And in this time of Edison,there was no material science."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2751.265,"endTime":2757.745,"body":"Yes, basically trial and error, differentsubstances to to, to get a light"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2757.745,"endTime":2760.865,"body":"bulb that is able to run in a proper."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2761.275,"endTime":2764.785,"body":"Uh, size and in a proper, um, duration."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2765.355,"endTime":2767.065,"body":"And also for our system."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2767.065,"endTime":2770.575,"body":"Right now, heterogeneous catalystsis mainly trial and error."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2771.115,"endTime":2777.175,"body":"Therefore, we have also testingthousands of different recipes to find"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2777.175,"endTime":2782.695,"body":"out the best recipe of the catalystto, to get our reactor running and,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2782.695,"endTime":2784.885,"body":"and have a good lifetime of it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2785.335,"endTime":2788.305,"body":"So I see many parallels to, to that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2788.305,"endTime":2788.95,"body":"Therefore, I like it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2789.62,"endTime":2790.34,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, definitely."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2790.34,"endTime":2792.95,"body":"That's a great invention."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2793.25,"endTime":2795.835,"body":"And, uh, more about the process, I think."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2797.045,"endTime":2797.285,"body":"Jonas: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2797.285,"endTime":2802.475,"body":"The, the process of invention, becauseas a scientist, you are already, or you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2802.685,"endTime":2808.565,"body":"always dream about, you come to the laband from, from the magical, um, spark."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2808.565,"endTime":2810.605,"body":"You, you, you see the invention."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2811.175,"endTime":2812.6,"body":"Kevin: But that's not the case usually."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2813.275,"endTime":2816.035,"body":"Jonas: in, in, sometimesit's not the case."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2816.035,"endTime":2817.145,"body":"It's, it's."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2817.34,"endTime":2817.43,"body":"S"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2818.04,"endTime":2818.33,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2818.66,"endTime":2822.5,"body":"Jonas: getting up every dayand testing new, new recipes"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2822.5,"endTime":2824.868,"body":"and new um, new experiments."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2824.988,"endTime":2829.758,"body":"Kevin: And then you might end upwith some new great technologies"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2829.758,"endTime":2833.118,"body":"like your salts for hydrogen storage."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2833.778,"endTime":2834.048,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2834.108,"endTime":2838.878,"body":"So thank you very much forthis really interesting talk."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2838.878,"endTime":2843.946,"body":"And then, uh, I'm looking forwardto seeing your technology develop."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2844.168,"endTime":2844.901,"body":"Thank you very much."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2844.931,"endTime":2848.392,"body":"Jonas: Thanks to you and,have nice speakers in the,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2848.392,"endTime":2850.687,"body":"in the upcoming, um, podcast."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2851.728,"endTime":2854.038,"body":"Kevin: Also, thank youvery much for listening."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2854.368,"endTime":2857.442,"body":"Don't forget to hit the followbutton on wherever you're listening,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2857.442,"endTime":2859.422,"body":"to not miss the next episodes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2859.782,"endTime":2863.712,"body":"This also helps me to reach morechemists and spread all these"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2863.712,"endTime":2865.722,"body":"super interesting innovations."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2866.224,"endTime":2869.678,"body":"If you want to talk about yourresearch in the podcast, send me an"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2869.708,"endTime":2873.908,"body":"email to contact@innovateandreact.com."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2874.21,"endTime":2875.5,"body":"Or connect with me on LinkedIn."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2875.885,"endTime":2879.035,"body":"Until next time, keepinnovating and stay curious."}]}