{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":null,"startTime":0.9,"endTime":3.21,"body":"Kevin: Welcome to Innovate and React."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3.3,"endTime":10.228,"body":"Today I'm, very happy to have FlorianNestler and he is a scientific"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":10.228,"endTime":12.978,"body":"advisor at, Fraunhofer, ISE."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":13.068,"endTime":20.478,"body":"And we will be discussing the synthesisof methanol and energy carriers."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":20.658,"endTime":24.618,"body":"But, uh, first of all, maybegive me a short background."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":26.083,"endTime":26.373,"body":"Florian: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":26.448,"endTime":27.048,"body":"Hello Kevin."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":27.138,"endTime":30.228,"body":"Thanks for the introduction andfor the invite to your podcast."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":30.658,"endTime":31.738,"body":"I'm happy to be here."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":32.641,"endTime":37.861,"body":"I'm scientific advisor in my department,sustainable Synthesis Products  at"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":37.861,"endTime":43.081,"body":"Fraunhofer Institute for SolarEnergy Systems ISE uh in Freiburg."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":43.631,"endTime":49.111,"body":"And at the Fraunhofer ISE is a, isone of 76 institutes all over Germany."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":49.771,"endTime":53.771,"body":"And our institute mainlyfocuses on photovoltaics."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":54.131,"endTime":57.711,"body":"This was basically, as you can alreadytell from the name of the institute."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":58.111,"endTime":60.171,"body":"This is the main research focus."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":61.491,"endTime":67.821,"body":"But uh, we also deal with heatpumps  with  power electronics"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":67.821,"endTime":70.291,"body":"and also integrated photovoltaics."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":70.311,"endTime":75.261,"body":"And finally, my division  isdealing with hydrogen technologies."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":76.206,"endTime":79.956,"body":"And in this division, hydrogenTechnologies, we have three departments."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":80.316,"endTime":84.786,"body":"So one is dealing with electrolyzers,so a generation of hydrogen from water."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":85.866,"endTime":88.236,"body":"The other is dealing with fuel cells."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":88.956,"endTime":94.086,"body":"So the utilization mainly, uh, inthe mobility sector of hydrogen and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":95.146,"endTime":99.976,"body":"my department, sustainable synthesisprocesses is dealing, yeah, with"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":100.011,"endTime":105.386,"body":"the synthesis of hydrogen derivedproducts such as, uh, ammonia,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":105.386,"endTime":111.106,"body":"methanol, higher hydrocarbons andeverything you basically need to have"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":111.106,"endTime":113.176,"body":"a de fossilized chemical industry,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":115.036,"endTime":115.666,"body":"Kevin: Uh, interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":115.716,"endTime":120.476,"body":"A broad range of technologiesand, uh, also products from the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":120.476,"endTime":120.866,"body":"chemical side."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":121.841,"endTime":122.261,"body":"Florian: Exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":122.261,"endTime":130.571,"body":"But it's, uh, still quite nice  becausethis whole energy storage concept and is"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":130.571,"endTime":135.651,"body":"of course also a topic for my colleaguesfrom the photovoltaic departments and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":135.651,"endTime":138.081,"body":"also for the energy system department."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":138.081,"endTime":143.241,"body":"So they are I think, pretty happy thatthey have the expertise in house with"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":143.241,"endTime":148.401,"body":"us, uh, that we can tell them, okay, howcan we store energy in a chemical way."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":148.461,"endTime":152.991,"body":"Uh, what is the, like most recenttechnology improvements in this sector"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":153.561,"endTime":153.781,"body":"Kevin: No."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":153.891,"endTime":156.231,"body":"Florian: can they, uh,implement this into their model?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":157.453,"endTime":162.691,"body":"Kevin: Yeah the more, uh, renewableenergy we have in our energy system,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":162.751,"endTime":165.361,"body":"the more energy storage we need."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":166.141,"endTime":169.591,"body":"And, uh, this is what wewill be talking today about."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":169.841,"endTime":175.601,"body":"Yeah, hydrogen is a really hot topic atthe moment, although I would say the hype"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":176.051,"endTime":182.931,"body":"has, decreased a bit, but still it willbe a very important part in the future"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":182.931,"endTime":186.521,"body":"energy system and, maybe we can shortly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":188.321,"endTime":190.511,"body":"Uh, introduce hydrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":190.631,"endTime":196.278,"body":"Why is it such an important pieceof the future energy system?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":196.847,"endTime":200.086,"body":"Florian: Yes, the hype, has declineda bit, I would say, uh, it's not"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":200.086,"endTime":204.146,"body":"over, and I will would say, this wasalso due to some politics in Germany."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":204.546,"endTime":207.096,"body":"I think there will be newpublicly funded projects soon."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":207.096,"endTime":210.986,"body":"Very interesting topics, whichare still open for research."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":211.106,"endTime":216.616,"body":"And, yeah, hydrogen, is going to be thebasic molecule for our energy transition."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":216.666,"endTime":218.136,"body":"Hydrogen we can produce from water"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":218.136,"endTime":221.536,"body":"electrolysis, which isdriven by renewable energies."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":221.986,"endTime":223.966,"body":"Renewable energy is ofcourse always a topic."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":224.116,"endTime":226.036,"body":"Uh, here in Germany, wewill not have enough."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":226.201,"endTime":230.141,"body":"Uh, renewable energy to supplyall our, hydrogen demands."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":230.531,"endTime":234.851,"body":"So, basically yeah, we will need toimport hydrogen carriers and also"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":234.851,"endTime":239.481,"body":"energy carriers, which usually containhydrogen, to Europe and to Germany."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":239.991,"endTime":242.111,"body":"That's more or less thefield, I'm working in."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":242.111,"endTime":246.461,"body":"So I'm looking for carbon based andnitrogen based, uh, fuels and chemicals."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":246.731,"endTime":252.351,"body":"So as hydrogen carriers, really asplatform chemicals, but also as direct"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":252.401,"endTime":256.751,"body":"application as fuel, for example,for maretime or aviation industry."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":256.751,"endTime":260.501,"body":"Kevin: There, the demand will reallyincrease, I guess, there where in the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":260.771,"endTime":266.041,"body":"past few months, a lot of, media coverageabout the shipping industry and also the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":266.041,"endTime":273.211,"body":"aviation industry, really focusing onsynthetic air fuels and also methanol,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":273.331,"endTime":280.245,"body":"or ammonia as fuels for the ships,which will also drive a huge demand."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":280.845,"endTime":284.77,"body":"If you think about how much fuelthose, uh, sectors consume, that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":285.12,"endTime":290.265,"body":"even the small percentages willalready give a really big demand."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":290.865,"endTime":291.525,"body":"Florian: Definitely."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":291.585,"endTime":295.955,"body":"Indeed, these sectors, well, are likethe first movers when it comes, to also"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":295.955,"endTime":298.025,"body":"green methanol, but also green ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":298.585,"endTime":304.555,"body":"The shipping industry is, I would sayeven further, than the aviation industry."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":304.655,"endTime":309.525,"body":"Sustainable aviation fields are currentlyrather made via, biogenic pathways."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":309.575,"endTime":315.715,"body":"So based on ethanol the hifa route butalso there's a lot of activities and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":315.715,"endTime":321.215,"body":"Fisher Tropsch related, sustainableaviation fuels and also, methanol based,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":321.275,"endTime":325.895,"body":"uh, sustainable aviation fuels andof course for the shipping industry."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":326.015,"endTime":331.235,"body":"There are a lot, uh, of announcementsby like big companies like Maersk, for"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":331.235,"endTime":337.235,"body":"example, who are now transforming, theirwhole fleet, to green methanol or ammonia"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":337.895,"endTime":340.395,"body":"or multi fuel, approaches also out there."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":340.395,"endTime":343.575,"body":"This is very interesting to observeand this is indeed the first"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":343.575,"endTime":345.345,"body":"market for these green molecules."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":345.45,"endTime":350.14,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, definitely becausehydrogen will be the way of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":350.38,"endTime":355.42,"body":"converting electrical energy fromrenewable sources into a molecule."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":355.42,"endTime":361.63,"body":"But hydrogen has a bit of aproblem with storage because"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":361.68,"endTime":368.07,"body":"it's a gas and not as easily tohandle like a liquid, for example."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":368.49,"endTime":374.21,"body":"And in the liquid form we have, allthese carbon based, uh, molecules"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":374.21,"endTime":380.24,"body":"and ammonia is, yeah, when youstore it, I think it's also liquid."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":380.87,"endTime":388.04,"body":"So what would be the hydrogencarriers, uh, which are carbon based?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":389.035,"endTime":389.455,"body":"Florian: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":390.15,"endTime":391.5,"body":"That's a good question."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":391.5,"endTime":396.31,"body":"Well, actually, you can think of anymolecule, any hydrocarbon out there."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":396.36,"endTime":399.14,"body":"Everything can be acarbon-based hydrogen carrier."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":400.22,"endTime":403.86,"body":"Of course when we talk aboutenergy carriers, like by means of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":403.86,"endTime":409.01,"body":"gravimetric, heating value, hydrogenis the best molecule we can obtain."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":409.52,"endTime":413.84,"body":"Uh, but as you said, when it's aboutvolume, then we don't wanna talk"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":413.84,"endTime":417.23,"body":"about hydrogen because then you wouldneed, even with compressed hydrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":417.23,"endTime":423.44,"body":"to 700 bar or minus, uh, 253 decreasedCelsius, liquified hydrogen, you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":423.44,"endTime":428.95,"body":"would need a lot of volume to storean significant amount of energy."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":429.26,"endTime":433.27,"body":"So for these, applications, we willneed, these carbon based fuels."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":433.51,"endTime":437.58,"body":"And on the other hand, as hydrogenis so difficult to store, we"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":437.58,"endTime":441.96,"body":"will also need these carbon basedhydrogen carriers like methanol."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":442.485,"endTime":445.15,"body":"I could also talk aboutmethane in that case."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":445.15,"endTime":449.93,"body":"Methane, again, has a drawback that isalso a gas, but much easier to compress,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":450.45,"endTime":454.08,"body":"and has a much higher volumetricheating value, uh, than hydrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":454.5,"endTime":456.66,"body":"Kevin: And already a wholeinfrastructure for it"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":457.365,"endTime":458.565,"body":"Florian: And the infrastructure."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":458.665,"endTime":461.365,"body":"Yeah, we have our liquified natural gas."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":461.395,"endTime":463.465,"body":"Of course, currently a huge topic."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":463.825,"endTime":466.045,"body":"Uh, so there we have infrastructure."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":466.445,"endTime":470.225,"body":"However, we still need some energyto achieve these low temperatures."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":470.405,"endTime":476.365,"body":"And, if we just want to burn the syntheticnatural gas, then of course this would"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":476.365,"endTime":478.675,"body":"be a proper way, a proper solution."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":479.075,"endTime":483.645,"body":"But if we want to use methane asa hydrogen carrier, it's not just"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":483.645,"endTime":488.355,"body":"about the hydrogen storage density,but it's also about how do we get"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":488.835,"endTime":490.455,"body":"the hydrogen out of this molecule."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":491.055,"endTime":495.765,"body":"So, we would need to apply likeconventional steam reforming technologies."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":495.765,"endTime":497.885,"body":"And these, need very high temperatures."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":497.885,"endTime":501.185,"body":"So basically you would haveto burn something to reach"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":501.185,"endTime":502.295,"body":"these temperature levels."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":502.685,"endTime":505.655,"body":"Uh, this could not be done viaheat pumps or electrical heating."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":506.145,"endTime":508.965,"body":"At least this is a research topicat the moment, let's say that way."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":509.455,"endTime":514.595,"body":"This is a, yeah, a big advantage formethanol and also for Dimethylether,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":514.925,"endTime":519.755,"body":"because these molecules, we can steamreform already at much lower temperatures,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":519.755,"endTime":522.065,"body":"at much milder, uh, conditions."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":522.155,"endTime":522.455,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":523.745,"endTime":531.875,"body":"And  the DME theory ether also is,a liquid hydro carbon made from"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":531.875,"endTime":534.965,"body":"methanol, or are they direct roots to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":535.715,"endTime":539.845,"body":"Florian: actually, you usuallygo to methanol first as platform"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":539.845,"endTime":543.995,"body":"molecule, and then, uh, frommethanol you go to dimethylether."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":544.425,"endTime":546.365,"body":"So basically, that's the dehydration."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":547.295,"endTime":550.025,"body":"And then, uh, yeah, youobtain dimethylether."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":550.535,"endTime":557.135,"body":"This is used to be quite a challenge inliterature, because like this gas phase"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":557.185,"endTime":563.385,"body":"processes, you need to separate, methanolfrom dimethylether, that's was a topic."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":563.695,"endTime":565.735,"body":"You had a equilibrium limitation there."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":566.215,"endTime":570.03,"body":"But my colleague, Malte Giersewas researching on a new process"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":570.03,"endTime":574.2,"body":"for DMEs Synthesis, which isbased on  reactive distillation."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":574.35,"endTime":578.22,"body":"So basically we can enter thedistillation column just before methanol."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":578.22,"endTime":584.13,"body":"So mixture of water and methanol and uh,yeah, top product will be DME two liter"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":584.31,"endTime":586.65,"body":"bottom product will simply be water."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":587.16,"endTime":593.38,"body":"And, this process to convertmethanol to DME is prospectively"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":593.44,"endTime":594.88,"body":"getting much, much easier."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":595.21,"endTime":597.97,"body":"So we are currently, in ourtechnical making experiments."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":598.205,"endTime":602.465,"body":"To scale the synesis up, uh, check thestability of the catalyst and so on."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":602.615,"endTime":602.885,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":603.105,"endTime":603.345,"body":"Kevin: interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":603.975,"endTime":607.245,"body":"Florian: That's one moleculeyou can obtain, from methanol."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":607.275,"endTime":608.835,"body":"But of course, methanol is so much more."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":608.835,"endTime":608.895,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":609.305,"endTime":610.875,"body":"Kevin: It's 1 more step."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":611.355,"endTime":615.525,"body":"So the advantage of DME, as Iunderstood, is that it can store"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":615.525,"endTime":617.625,"body":"more hydrogen in the same volume,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":618.955,"endTime":619.555,"body":"Florian: exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":619.56,"endTime":619.7,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":620.73,"endTime":621.02,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":621.355,"endTime":625.635,"body":"So especially when you apply steamreforming to these carbon based molecules"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":625.665,"endTime":632.655,"body":"like, methane, methanol, DME  then youget an additional molecule of, or you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":632.655,"endTime":635.385,"body":"get additional molecules of hydrogen out."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":635.985,"endTime":639.945,"body":"From the water you introduce to thesteam reforming reaction basically."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":640.365,"endTime":642.975,"body":"So this is of course not forfree because steam reforming is"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":642.975,"endTime":644.415,"body":"always an endo farming reaction."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":644.895,"endTime":650.075,"body":"But, if you calculate the specificreaction enthalpy uh, per molecule"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":650.075,"endTime":654.885,"body":"of hydrogen you obtain, thenthe energy input is way below"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":655.015,"endTime":656.425,"body":"water electrolyzer or something."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":656.905,"endTime":661.795,"body":"Uh, so this, there you can save a lotof energy at the hydrogen consumption"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":661.795,"endTime":662.215,"body":"site."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":662.875,"endTime":668.065,"body":"And this has another benefit  because inall of these synesis processes, so when"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":668.065,"endTime":672.925,"body":"you come from CO2 and hydrogen and convertit to methanol, to dematerial eater or"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":672.925,"endTime":676.045,"body":"to  methane, you produce a lot of water."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":677.035,"endTime":681.805,"body":"For methanol synesis, for example,from CO2, you produce one molecule of,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":681.865,"endTime":683.725,"body":"uh, methanol, one molecule of water."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":684.145,"endTime":688.665,"body":"And, this water you can of course separateand lead back to the electrolyzer."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":689.205,"endTime":692.895,"body":"So when we talk about the locationswhere we are going to produce these"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":692.895,"endTime":697.375,"body":"hydrogen carriers in the future wewill probably be in areas with a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":697.375,"endTime":700.865,"body":"lot of sun, and not a lot, of water."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":701.09,"endTime":703.23,"body":"So not the areas, like Europe."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":703.26,"endTime":704.49,"body":"We do not have a lot of sun."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":704.49,"endTime":705.48,"body":"We have a lot of rain here."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":706.56,"endTime":713.66,"body":"So basically very dry areas and there weneed, to yeah, keep the water or decrease"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":713.66,"endTime":715.63,"body":"the water consumption of this reaction."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":715.72,"endTime":720.09,"body":"And this is one pathway and one benefityou have with these carbon based hydrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":720.09,"endTime":722.82,"body":"carriers compared for example, to ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":724.17,"endTime":726.18,"body":"Ammonia, which is nitrogen based."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":726.61,"endTime":727.9,"body":"You cannot steam reform."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":728.11,"endTime":734.32,"body":"So there you really, uh, yeah, onlyget the hydrogen out you transport."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":735.49,"endTime":740.75,"body":"And you consume the same amount, ofwater at the consumption site as you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":740.75,"endTime":744.81,"body":"would if you would just produce hydrogenand ship it to Germany or Europe."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":745.14,"endTime":745.32,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":746.19,"endTime":751.29,"body":"Kevin: also you just mentionedthat it would need less water, but"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":752.28,"endTime":759.18,"body":"that is because the steam reformingbasically is done, for example, in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":759.18,"endTime":762.03,"body":"Europe when we consume the hydrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":762.88,"endTime":763.26,"body":"Florian: Oh yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":763.26,"endTime":770.25,"body":"Kevin: you get part of the water backwhile doing the methane or methanol"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":770.25,"endTime":775.23,"body":"synthesis from the CO2 that you use."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":775.29,"endTime":775.56,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":775.755,"endTime":775.905,"body":"Florian: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":775.905,"endTime":777.225,"body":"So maybe this point wasn't clear."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":777.225,"endTime":781.965,"body":"So, of course in Europe, I. Currently atleast we have plenty of water, I would"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":781.965,"endTime":784.485,"body":"say, compared to South America or Africa."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":785.085,"endTime":792.225,"body":"Uh, so, uh, here we could, uh,yeah, use our fresh water  to, and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":792.225,"endTime":793.665,"body":"add this to the steam reforming."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":793.665,"endTime":795.795,"body":"We would not transportthe water over the ocean."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":796.365,"endTime":798.285,"body":"We would just transportthe hydrogen carrier."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":799.24,"endTime":806.17,"body":"Kevin: That, that piece of, uh,water is then basically used where"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":806.17,"endTime":807.82,"body":"we have enough water in Europe."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":808.825,"endTime":809.395,"body":"Florian: Exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":809.925,"endTime":810.075,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":811.3,"endTime":815.74,"body":"Kevin: And  when we now talkabout methanol, uh, we already"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":815.8,"endTime":818.89,"body":"said it can be used for fuel."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":820.18,"endTime":822.46,"body":"What other uses for methanol"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":823.57,"endTime":826.66,"body":"Florian: Yeah, methanol iscurrently, used directly as a fuel,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":826.76,"endTime":829.01,"body":"in a quite high amount in China."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":829.14,"endTime":835.88,"body":"So they blend, I guess, uh, up to 20%,maybe even more, into the usual gasoline."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":837.23,"endTime":837.38,"body":"So."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":838.15,"endTime":842.13,"body":"That's, actually a curiosity whenyou hear of that the first time."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":842.13,"endTime":843.66,"body":"Why does Europe not"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":843.66,"endTime":844.11,"body":"do this?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":844.65,"endTime":850.51,"body":"Well, Europe imports, basically all ofits, mineral oil and, this is what the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":850.51,"endTime":852.36,"body":"Chinese, actually don't want to do."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":852.39,"endTime":856.8,"body":"So they want to be globallyindependent, geopolitically independent."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":856.83,"endTime":860.45,"body":"And so  they also do nothave a lot of, mineral oil."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":860.45,"endTime":864.66,"body":"So actually, this is quite similar,uh, to the situation in Europe."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":865.14,"endTime":869.227,"body":"And, they use their coal, uh,gasify it make a syngas out of that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":869.857,"endTime":874.077,"body":"And then with the syngas, they producemethanol as the first platform molecule."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":874.797,"endTime":878.247,"body":"Uh, they can use the methanoldirectly, of course, as a fuel."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":878.247,"endTime":881.337,"body":"They can also export it whenthe, like world market price is"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":881.337,"endTime":884.887,"body":"high, they can directly exportit, to nations that need it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":886.327,"endTime":892.837,"body":"But of course they can also go furtherlike do basic conversions to formaldehyde."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":894.427,"endTime":897.497,"body":"Other, base chemicals, whichthey again need for the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":897.527,"endTime":899.177,"body":"polymer industry, for example."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":900.437,"endTime":906.657,"body":"And, uh, what they also did, sincearound 2010, was methanol to olefines."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":907.207,"endTime":912.687,"body":"So methanol to olefines is actually aprocess which is not very economic, I"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":912.687,"endTime":918.537,"body":"would say  compared, to just drillinga hole and, yeah, getting mineral oil"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":918.537,"endTime":922.467,"body":"out and refining that, that's of coursemuch cheaper than methanol to olefins."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":923.577,"endTime":927.767,"body":"But here again, China wanted to beindependent, from the oil market."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":928.247,"endTime":934.327,"body":"And yeah, when the oil prices are high,the Chinese economy is, actually pretty"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":934.327,"endTime":939.897,"body":"relaxed because then they simply rampup the MTO capacities and produce all of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":939.897,"endTime":942.017,"body":"their hydrocarbons with these facilities."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":942.432,"endTime":947.292,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, because the olefins arebasically the basis for the whole"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":947.782,"endTime":954.042,"body":"petrochemical industry we alreadyhave, and then all these very well"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":954.042,"endTime":960.162,"body":"known processes can be used tomake basically the whole range of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":960.162,"endTime":962.832,"body":"chemicals that are used in the world."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":963.447,"endTime":964.377,"body":"Florian: yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":964.682,"endTime":968.312,"body":"That's of course in case of China, asuper dirty process when they do it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":968.362,"endTime":971.932,"body":"Coal gasification is one of themost dirty processes in the world,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":972.412,"endTime":977.112,"body":"and the methanol produced from coalgasification has a huge, carbon impact."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":977.602,"endTime":978.652,"body":"Or CO2 impact."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":978.712,"endTime":985.822,"body":"So this  does definitely play a hugerole also for global CO2 emissions."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":986.962,"endTime":987.412,"body":"But, uh."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":987.892,"endTime":991.902,"body":"Also there's something positiveabout this, because China kind of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":992.142,"endTime":996.862,"body":"implemented this MTO technology andincreased the technology readiness"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":996.862,"endTime":1000.352,"body":"level in the last decades quitea lot for these technologies."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1000.352,"endTime":1003.502,"body":"And, uh, now there's somescientific know-how on that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1003.982,"endTime":1007.452,"body":"And when we talk about the future,then we can of course use this"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1007.452,"endTime":1011.742,"body":"knowhow to start from green methanol,not from black methanol as, I"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1011.742,"endTime":1013.212,"body":"call this coal-based methanol."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1013.722,"endTime":1019.132,"body":"And, uh, then could have CO2 neutralhydrocarbons and use these for"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1019.132,"endTime":1020.722,"body":"aviation industry, for example."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1021.992,"endTime":1022.172,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1022.202,"endTime":1028.412,"body":"That's, that's really, uh, interestingthat you can basically use this very"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1028.592,"endTime":1034.322,"body":"dirty technology to then use it ongreen methanol, and then the whole"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1034.682,"endTime":1040.802,"body":"story changes because with the greenmethanol, there's basically, since you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1040.802,"endTime":1044.612,"body":"take CO2 from the air or other, uh."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1045.182,"endTime":1050.542,"body":"Processes, which emit a lot of, CO2,you can basically decrease actually the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1050.542,"endTime":1057.682,"body":"amount of CO2 if you would make plasticsout of it, then you could even store this"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1057.682,"endTime":1060.892,"body":"CO2 somewhat, uh, for a long, long time."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1061.492,"endTime":1065.872,"body":"And this is interesting becauseit's more or less independent of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1065.872,"endTime":1067.222,"body":"where you get the methanol from."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1067.222,"endTime":1073.612,"body":"So you can actually now benefit fromthe, this technology that was developed"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1073.612,"endTime":1076.582,"body":"for a completely different reason"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1077.392,"endTime":1080.172,"body":"that, coal needed to beturned into chemicals."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1080.907,"endTime":1082.707,"body":"Florian: that's a very importantpoint you mentioned here."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1082.757,"endTime":1087.747,"body":"And this is maybe also a fact why I likemy job and the area I'm working in, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1087.777,"endTime":1093.417,"body":"because this whole Power two X area ismostly based on very old technologies."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1093.417,"endTime":1096.117,"body":"So when we talk about ammonia,this was like the first high"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1096.117,"endTime":1100.587,"body":"pressure, high temperatures,synesis  methanol was the second one."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1101.037,"endTime":1103.347,"body":"So methanol is now methanol."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1103.347,"endTime":1105.417,"body":"Synesis is now 102 years old."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1105.417,"endTime":1107.037,"body":"So this is a super old syn thesis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1107.037,"endTime":1110.157,"body":"And when I started my PhD, I actuallywondered, okay, what can we do better"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1110.157,"endTime":1114.867,"body":"about this old this old synthesis likethis, everything was invented there."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1116.007,"endTime":1119.767,"body":"There's so many companies out therewho are like spending a lot of RnD"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1119.787,"endTime":1125.187,"body":"budget into, uh, increasing the,the efficiency of methanol synesis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1126.147,"endTime":1130.047,"body":"But then when I actually looked intoCO2 based methanol synesis, which is"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1130.047,"endTime":1134.617,"body":"entirely different, than this fossilprocess, uh, then it becomes interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1134.617,"endTime":1140.267,"body":"So with these details, then, you haveto deal and this is what we are dealing"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1140.267,"endTime":1142.247,"body":"with here in our in our research group."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1142.727,"endTime":1147.347,"body":"Yeah, so for example  theseold processes, they were all"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1147.347,"endTime":1149.507,"body":"based on coal or natural gas."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1149.807,"endTime":1153.047,"body":"So basically, yeah, let'stalk about natural gas."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1153.047,"endTime":1156.917,"body":"Maybe you drill a hole, you checkthe composition of the natural gas."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1157.457,"endTime":1162.137,"body":"You customize a steam reformer plant,uh, build it on top of the bo hole,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1162.677,"endTime":1165.317,"body":"uh, somewhere in Africa, for example."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1166.277,"endTime":1169.607,"body":"So then you can convert the naturalgas to methanol, which you can"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1169.637,"endTime":1174.047,"body":"transport super easily and you shipit all over the world as base chemical"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1174.439,"endTime":1177.049,"body":"Kevin: And it is alreadytraded as a commodity, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1177.842,"endTime":1178.539,"body":"methanol has a huge market."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1179.104,"endTime":1179.704,"body":"Florian: exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1179.837,"endTime":1182.477,"body":"So there's this, uh,thing called stranded gas."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1183.227,"endTime":1186.077,"body":"This is for example, anequatorial Equatorial Guinea."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1186.827,"endTime":1190.937,"body":"They have a huge methanol centJesus plant because they have a huge"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1191.057,"endTime":1194.297,"body":"natural gas depot and they don't knowwhat to do with this natural gas."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1194.747,"endTime":1198.407,"body":"So, uh, yeah, they make methanol fromit and then ship it all over the world."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1198.662,"endTime":1199.262,"body":"Kevin: interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1199.307,"endTime":1200.867,"body":"Florian: that's, that's a business idea,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1201.767,"endTime":1203.057,"body":"or was a business idea."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1203.777,"endTime":1204.107,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1204.737,"endTime":1210.267,"body":"And  all of these, processes, theyrun steady state because once."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1210.597,"endTime":1212.337,"body":"The, the plant is up and running."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1212.487,"endTime":1216.207,"body":"Then basically the operator willnever turn this plant down until"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1216.207,"endTime":1219.297,"body":"the catalyst is, for example, wornout and you need to replace it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1220.467,"endTime":1223.987,"body":"But usually they run 24 7 on full load."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1224.827,"endTime":1229.077,"body":"And, uh, when we now talk aboutpower to X, we are usually based"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1229.107,"endTime":1232.497,"body":"on renewable hydrogen, whichis based on renewable power."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1232.977,"endTime":1237.207,"body":"And, we do not have like a steady powersupply because, for example, there's"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1237.207,"endTime":1239.677,"body":"no sun, there's no wind whatsoever."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1240.007,"endTime":1244.417,"body":"Then we have to be able to, uh, turndown our electrolyzer pretty quickly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1244.927,"endTime":1247.657,"body":"And this is not a problemon current state of the art."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1248.527,"endTime":1251.297,"body":"Like there's very dynamicelectrolyzers already today."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1252.022,"endTime":1255.092,"body":"But, uh, the problem is the next steps."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1255.092,"endTime":1260.062,"body":"So when we convert this hydrogen tomethanol and also to, like follow up"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1260.062,"endTime":1263.242,"body":"products, downstream products  then."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1264.217,"endTime":1268.417,"body":"We need to make the synesis runningdynamically, at least the first"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1268.417,"endTime":1271.537,"body":"step, which is the methanol synesis,because then we have a liquid product"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1271.537,"endTime":1273.277,"body":"we can store in a buffer tank."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1274.357,"endTime":1279.157,"body":"But uh, yeah, hydrogen is such alight gas that it's super expensive"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1279.157,"endTime":1283.387,"body":"and difficult to store, so we wouldnot want to store a lot of hydrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1284.227,"endTime":1285.917,"body":"at industrial production side."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1286.502,"endTime":1291.632,"body":"Kevin: I guess some part can be bufferedthat you don't really have like directly"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1291.632,"endTime":1298.442,"body":"connection electrolyzer to the methanolplant, but as you said, storing hydrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1299.102,"endTime":1302.912,"body":"needs compression, and that especiallyfor hydrogen, needs a lot of energy."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1302.912,"endTime":1307.982,"body":"So I guess you want to avoidthat as much as possible, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1308.627,"endTime":1309.347,"body":"Florian: Exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1309.467,"endTime":1313.427,"body":"Uh, so we need to define thetechnical limits of how dynamic can"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1313.427,"endTime":1315.647,"body":"our methanol synthesis process go."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1315.977,"endTime":1318.737,"body":"So if it could follow thedynamics of the electrolyzer,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1318.737,"endTime":1320.177,"body":"then it would be super dynamic."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1320.587,"endTime":1324.457,"body":"I don't expect that this will be,uh, possible in the near future."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1325.267,"endTime":1326.947,"body":"Kevin: What are the main problems?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1327.247,"endTime":1330.277,"body":"Uh, actually the, the methanol synthesis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1330.277,"endTime":1331.087,"body":"The catalyst?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1331.137,"endTime":1332.067,"body":"Florian: That's a good question."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1332.067,"endTime":1333.207,"body":"That's a very good question."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1333.267,"endTime":1337.587,"body":"And we thought first of all thatthe catalyst would be a huge"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1337.587,"endTime":1339.807,"body":"problem, uh, and probably it is."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1340.347,"endTime":1345.417,"body":"So there's still studies missing whereyou apply a fluctuating load over a long"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1345.417,"endTime":1351.067,"body":"term on methanol synesis catalyst and thencompare it to a steady state catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1351.067,"endTime":1355.807,"body":"So does it age quicker thana steady state catalyst?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1356.017,"endTime":1357.037,"body":"Can I say it like that?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1357.097,"endTime":1357.967,"body":"I think yes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1358.477,"endTime":1359.587,"body":"Uh, so."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1360.472,"endTime":1363.052,"body":"There's, uh, long-termstudies missing at the moment."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1363.172,"endTime":1364.572,"body":"That's maybe the problem"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1366.281,"endTime":1372.401,"body":"Kevin: I guess that also comes from that,uh, where,  all these optimizations that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1372.401,"endTime":1376.871,"body":"were done before for the coal process,they aimed for the steady state, and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1376.871,"endTime":1383.651,"body":"now we are looking into this dynamicprocess, which is then new with similar"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1383.651,"endTime":1386.491,"body":"concept, but with new challenges."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1387.901,"endTime":1389.491,"body":"Florian: Yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1389.551,"endTime":1395.521,"body":"So nobody actually was taking careabout the temperature profile inside"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1395.521,"endTime":1398.131,"body":"the cent reactor, for example so much."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1398.531,"endTime":1399.761,"body":"Of course this is a topic."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1400.261,"endTime":1403.621,"body":"Let's maybe first introducea methanol synesis reactor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1404.101,"endTime":1408.331,"body":"Uh, there's different types, but, let'stalk maybe about the steam cooled reactor,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1408.331,"endTime":1410.701,"body":"which is like the industrial standard."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1411.571,"endTime":1416.071,"body":"There you have a tubular reactor, somany, many tubes, maybe 9,000 tubes,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1416.101,"endTime":1420.481,"body":"uh, which are seven meters long, havean inner diameter of five centimeters."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1420.631,"endTime":1425.181,"body":"And they are filled with catalystand outside these tubes on the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1425.181,"endTime":1429.161,"body":"shell side you have circulatingwater, which is evaporating."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1429.761,"endTime":1433.481,"body":"So you're generating steam from thisreaction, from the heat of the reaction."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1433.981,"endTime":1438.811,"body":"Kevin: Maybe let's go back astep and quickly introduce the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1438.811,"endTime":1441.421,"body":"basics of the methanol synthesis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1442.382,"endTime":1442.622,"body":"Florian: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1442.622,"endTime":1447.902,"body":"So basically methanol, synthesis,uh, is an exothermic reaction,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1447.902,"endTime":1449.402,"body":"which is equilibrium limited."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1449.612,"endTime":1456.036,"body":"So,  yeah, you cannot get 100% conversionwithin a single pass through the reactor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1456.396,"endTime":1457.866,"body":"Uh, even if you want to."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1459.246,"endTime":1460.746,"body":"It's volume decreasing."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1461.826,"endTime":1462.936,"body":"And exothermic."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1462.996,"endTime":1468.866,"body":"So thermodynamically, uh, you would needlow temperatures and high pressures to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1468.921,"endTime":1473.317,"body":"make this shift the equilibrium towardsthe product side and get something"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1473.317,"endTime":1475.417,"body":"like an almost full conversion."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1476.681,"endTime":1481.591,"body":"Unfortunately, uh, this low temperaturedoesn't work because the catalyst is"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1481.591,"endTime":1483.861,"body":"not active below 200 degrees Celsius."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1483.921,"endTime":1490.431,"body":"So we need, uh, an increased temperatureinside director and usually temperature"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1490.431,"endTime":1493.101,"body":"is between 200 and 300 degrees Celsius."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1493.611,"endTime":1499.191,"body":"And  yeah, to counter play thishigher temperature, uh, we need to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1499.191,"endTime":1500.541,"body":"increase the pressure of the synesis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1500.781,"endTime":1505.506,"body":"So I. That we can achieve asignificant conversion in the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1505.506,"endTime":1507.246,"body":"reactor at these temperatures."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1507.576,"endTime":1511.656,"body":"We need increased pressures, whichusually are between 50 and 80 bar,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1512.316,"endTime":1518.136,"body":"and even then we probably have perpast conversions between 10 and 20%."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1519.216,"endTime":1524.316,"body":"So what happens basically in themethanol synthesis process, you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1524.346,"endTime":1527.006,"body":"condense out  the condensables."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1527.166,"endTime":1531.906,"body":"So this is basically methanol water andcondensable side products, which are"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1531.906,"endTime":1534.486,"body":"not much, uh, selectivity is super high."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1535.566,"endTime":1539.616,"body":"And the uncondensed gases, theyare recycled back to the reactor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1539.676,"endTime":1543.096,"body":"So  that you can obtain a full conversion"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1543.666,"endTime":1552.083,"body":"Kevin: So you have a loop between thegas phase, uh, which the condensable"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1552.083,"endTime":1558.923,"body":"are taken out, and that is fed backfrom what I remember from a lecture,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1559.253,"endTime":1565.133,"body":"uh, in the universities also, that theyhave, uh, two recor concepts where they"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1565.133,"endTime":1572.423,"body":"have basically one rector, which doesa lot of the conversion, and then you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1572.423,"endTime":1574.493,"body":"have basically a second reactor, which."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1576.113,"endTime":1582.293,"body":"Converts less amount, but more likebrings it more to full conversion, like"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1582.293,"endTime":1582.653,"body":"this"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1583.537,"endTime":1585.443,"body":"Lurgi methanol process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1585.848,"endTime":1588.188,"body":"Florian: you can control,uh, the thermodynamics of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1588.188,"endTime":1589.538,"body":"course, a bit by temperature."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1589.538,"endTime":1593.708,"body":"So if you first have, for example,an increased temperature  then"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1593.768,"endTime":1597.248,"body":"you have very fast reactionkinetics and the first reactor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1597.248,"endTime":1600.818,"body":"And if you're in the second stage  ora second reactor, you have lower"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1600.818,"endTime":1604.898,"body":"temperatures, then you are likein a better equilibrium yield."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1606.098,"endTime":1609.908,"body":"But, uh, of course you need morecatalysts, uh, to get to this"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1609.908,"endTime":1613.148,"body":"equilibrium then, uh, becausethe reaction rate is, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1613.418,"endTime":1613.838,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1614.471,"endTime":1619.451,"body":"Yeah, the temperature control is veryimportant in these kinds of reactions."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1620.531,"endTime":1627.461,"body":"You have mentioned that the tubularreactor design is used with these,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1627.731,"endTime":1632.041,"body":"uh, 9,000 tubes to basically keepthe reaction temperature lower,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1632.041,"endTime":1635.581,"body":"which would increase on its own."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1636.751,"endTime":1642.121,"body":"And you were saying that you can geta lot of steam out of the reaction."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1642.784,"endTime":1645.994,"body":"Florian: So you're generatinga lot of steam with those and,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1646.054,"endTime":1650.704,"body":"uh, due to this diameter of fivecentimeters  you do not have an"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1650.704,"endTime":1652.974,"body":"ideal exothermic temperature profile."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1653.484,"endTime":1660.084,"body":"So  there's actually some people callit isothermal reactor, but I rather used"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1660.084,"endTime":1664.524,"body":"to call it poly tropic reactor becauseyou have a heat removal to some extent."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1665.004,"endTime":1668.004,"body":"But not all of the heat, especiallyin the first zone of the reactor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1668.004,"endTime":1672.416,"body":"But as syngas is super fresh, you arefar away from the chemical equilibrium."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1672.956,"endTime":1677.816,"body":"There you have a very high  reaction,velocity, and of course, as a consequence,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1677.846,"endTime":1680.426,"body":"very high, uh, amount of heat produced"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1681.476,"endTime":1683.876,"body":"so that the temperature rises"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1684.971,"endTime":1690.551,"body":"Kevin: they're then hotspots in, in thereactor and they do harm the catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1690.591,"endTime":1692.464,"body":"Florian: That depends onthe syngas composition."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1692.464,"endTime":1694.594,"body":"So that's also a huge question I covered."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1695.074,"endTime":1698.584,"body":"Uh, not only me, but also otherresearchers covered in their research."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1698.584,"endTime":1705.804,"body":"But also I did analyze this in my PhD.So how does a certain gas composition"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1705.804,"endTime":1708.354,"body":"affect the temperature of the hotspot?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1708.744,"endTime":1714.564,"body":"So you usually have a cooling temperaturebetween 240 and 260 degrees Celsius."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1715.104,"endTime":1719.664,"body":"And the absolute maximum temperatureyou should achieve in this hotspot,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1720.174,"endTime":1725.994,"body":"uh, should, it should not exceed280 to 300 degrees Celsius."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1726.354,"endTime":1730.934,"body":"So if you exceed this temperature,then the catalyst, starts cintering"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1731.034,"endTime":1737.574,"body":"inside the hotspot and yeah, basicallyit dies, uh, pretty, pretty rapidly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1737.934,"endTime":1742.134,"body":"So  this is a border notto cross, I would say."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1742.134,"endTime":1749.079,"body":"And I. For this steady state conventionalprocess  there has been a lot of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1749.079,"endTime":1753.999,"body":"measurement, uh, measurements fromindustry which are not known to the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1754.209,"endTime":1758.829,"body":"scientific society of course  becausethis is all highly confidential."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1759.579,"endTime":1762.059,"body":"But also there has been alot of research on that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1762.119,"endTime":1764.669,"body":"How high is the hotspot inside the reactor"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1765.599,"endTime":1772.319,"body":"Kevin: Maybe we can  go again,one step back to compare this new"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1772.499,"endTime":1775.049,"body":"process to the conventional process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1775.559,"endTime":1781.289,"body":"I think that the conventionalprocess is from syngas, so a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1781.289,"endTime":1785.369,"body":"mixture of CO and hydrogen and, uh."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1786.359,"endTime":1793.139,"body":"Newer, uh, or hydrogen based, uh,processes are based on CO2 and hydrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1793.919,"endTime":1794.209,"body":"Florian: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1794.714,"endTime":1798.104,"body":"I can just explain againthis conventional syngas."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1798.104,"endTime":1803.524,"body":"So the conventional syngas hasbasically, uh, a lot of carbon monoxide."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1803.524,"endTime":1807.364,"body":"This was, uh, what you said correctly,but also there's always a bit"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1807.364,"endTime":1809.444,"body":"of carbon dioxide in the syngas"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1809.824,"endTime":1813.274,"body":"because without the carbondioxide the reaction mechanism"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1813.544,"endTime":1815.254,"body":"could not, get started actually."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1816.304,"endTime":1821.224,"body":"Because, uh, at the moment, at least,this is still under a huge discussion"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1821.224,"endTime":1824.774,"body":"in the scientific community, butat the moment, people say that the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1824.774,"endTime":1829.954,"body":"methanol is not produced from directcarbon monoxide hydrogenation  but"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1829.954,"endTime":1831.934,"body":"rather from CO2 hydrogenation."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1832.414,"endTime":1837.514,"body":"So  CO2 plus hydrogen reactsto methanol and water."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1838.519,"endTime":1843.079,"body":"So with the conventional syngas, whichis mainly, uh, carbon monoxide and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1843.079,"endTime":1845.929,"body":"hydrogen, where do we get the CO2 from?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1846.199,"endTime":1849.109,"body":"And this is where water gasshift reaction comes into play."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1849.569,"endTime":1854.939,"body":"We need the water produced from theCO2 hydrogenation and we take the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1854.969,"endTime":1859.559,"body":"carbon monoxide from the syngas, andthen we produce, uh, hydrogen and CO2."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1859.829,"endTime":1863.129,"body":"And with these two gases, we canthen do the CO2 hydrogenation."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1863.579,"endTime":1868.169,"body":"So basically it's just these tworeactions, most probably at least."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1868.349,"endTime":1870.179,"body":"So as I said, this is under discussion."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1871.439,"endTime":1875.779,"body":"But yeah, this is a lot of findingsin the scientific literature and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1875.779,"endTime":1877.399,"body":"also our own findings indicated."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1877.399,"endTime":1879.289,"body":"It's just these two reactions mainly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1880.519,"endTime":1886.429,"body":"And yeah, the difference, uh, betweenthis conventional gas and the green"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1886.589,"endTime":1891.779,"body":"syngas, uh, which is based on CO2and hydrogen is basically that in the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1891.779,"endTime":1896.639,"body":"green syngas or the power two methanolprocess, you do not have carbon monoxide."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1897.209,"endTime":1904.859,"body":"So  there you have the reverse water, gasshift reaction, basically  because  you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1904.859,"endTime":1907.019,"body":"have a lot of CO2, a lot of hydrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1907.139,"endTime":1911.909,"body":"So what's happening is basically youproduce water and carbon monoxide."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1912.569,"endTime":1917.009,"body":"And the carbon monoxide is not a bigproblem because, uh, this can later"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1917.069,"endTime":1921.089,"body":"be converted, recycled to the rectaand converted to methanol again."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1922.049,"endTime":1925.649,"body":"The problem is rather the water, because,uh, in this reverse water gas shift"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1925.649,"endTime":1931.069,"body":"reaction you obtain a lot of water andin the CO2 origination of course as well."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1931.669,"endTime":1937.204,"body":"So basically,  you are having very highpartial pressures of water, and this was"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1937.204,"endTime":1939.634,"body":"not the case for the conventional synesis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1939.664,"endTime":1945.244,"body":"So this is basically a challengebesides this, this dynamic aspect."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1945.334,"endTime":1950.224,"body":"Another challenge for the catalystthat it's, subjected to very high, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1950.224,"endTime":1954.004,"body":"water partial pressures, especiallytowards the outlet of the reactor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1954.859,"endTime":1954.939,"body":"Kevin: hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1955.489,"endTime":1958.309,"body":"Florian: And yeah, basicallythese are the two main challenges."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1958.309,"endTime":1962.059,"body":"You have a dynamic operation and youhave high water partial pressures."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1962.899,"endTime":1968.119,"body":"When it comes to the temperature of thehotspot, uh, this is not as critical"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1968.209,"endTime":1972.919,"body":"because the exothermic heat of the CO2hydrogenation is much lower than the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1972.919,"endTime":1975.049,"body":"exothermic heat of CO hydrogenation."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1975.079,"endTime":1980.089,"body":"So if you just look at the overallreaction equation  so the hotspot does"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1980.089,"endTime":1985.639,"body":"not rise as far, but the combinationof, let's say increased temperature"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1985.639,"endTime":1989.269,"body":"and high water partial pressures,uh, still damages the catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1989.269,"endTime":1990.739,"body":"So this is something youhave to take care of."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1991.174,"endTime":1991.264,"body":"Kevin: mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1992.224,"endTime":1998.014,"body":"And also, I assume more watermakes it more difficult to have"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1998.134,"endTime":2002.424,"body":"the purification after, or is thisthen not that much of a problem?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2003.879,"endTime":2006.969,"body":"Florian: Well, the water, ofcourse you have, uh, to get rid"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2006.969,"endTime":2010.039,"body":"of in the purification section,which is usually a distillation."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2012.034,"endTime":2019.024,"body":"But, uh, I think the bigger problem thereis that the water  also kicks in when"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2019.024,"endTime":2020.644,"body":"you look at the chemical equilibrium."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2020.794,"endTime":2027.764,"body":"So  the water inhibits or decreasesthe  equilibrium yield of the reaction."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2028.334,"endTime":2032.714,"body":"And it, it also inhibits  thereaction kinetics of the catalyst, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2032.744,"endTime":2037.924,"body":"because it's absorbed on the catalystsurface and it basically strongly"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2037.924,"endTime":2039.664,"body":"absorbs on the catalyst surface."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2039.964,"endTime":2043.294,"body":"So  the reaction kinetics,they get much slower."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2043.324,"endTime":2048.544,"body":"And to produce the same amount ofmethanol from a CO2 based synesis,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2048.544,"endTime":2051.994,"body":"you would need much more catalystcompared to a conventional synesis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2052.684,"endTime":2054.184,"body":"So this is also a bit of a problem."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2054.304,"endTime":2059.794,"body":"Kevin: Just more catalyst, or would thisdirectly mean also a larger rector, which"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2059.794,"endTime":2062.284,"body":"is usually much more expensive, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2063.184,"endTime":2066.004,"body":"Florian: As a consequence, this meansthat you would need also a larger"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2066.004,"endTime":2069.094,"body":"reactor  or a different reactor concept."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2069.154,"endTime":2074.374,"body":"Uh, of course you can also think of otherreactor types like atic reactor types."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2075.964,"endTime":2078.994,"body":"But yeah, this is a hugestory about reactor design."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2080.344,"endTime":2083.224,"body":"But the kinetics are slower,and this is, of course, when you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2083.224,"endTime":2086.944,"body":"look at these key indicators likespace time yield, for example."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2087.354,"endTime":2090.874,"body":"This is a much lower value ofa CO2 based, uh, synesis than"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2090.874,"endTime":2092.374,"body":"for the conventional pathway."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2093.724,"endTime":2099.364,"body":"So there's a lot of,  research goingon to increase the activity of the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2099.364,"endTime":2105.784,"body":"catalyst  for CO2 based methanol synesis,and also to increase the stability"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2106.204,"endTime":2108.064,"body":"of the catalyst long-term stability."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2108.724,"endTime":2113.544,"body":"And this dynamic operation is ofcourse also a topic the catalyst"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2113.544,"endTime":2115.734,"body":"producers are very much interested in."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2116.154,"endTime":2121.164,"body":"So how does the catalyst produce andreact when you apply harsh load changes"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2121.164,"endTime":2124.254,"body":"to the reactor, which you would usuallynot have in a conventional plant?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2124.974,"endTime":2129.644,"body":"And yeah, this is, uh, basically whatI measured but also described during my"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2129.644,"endTime":2136.484,"body":"PhD and  we actually point out that thereactor is not, uh, I would say it's"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2136.484,"endTime":2139.334,"body":"not evil, it's not instable, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2139.334,"endTime":2143.234,"body":"When you, when you do a load change ina methation reactor where you have a lot"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2143.294,"endTime":2148.084,"body":"of exothermic heat, then you could cometo the point where simply lights off."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2148.114,"endTime":2151.474,"body":"You cannot get the heat out ofthe system, and the temperature"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2151.564,"endTime":2153.964,"body":"just increases very harshly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2154.324,"endTime":2159.354,"body":"Kevin: From what range to whatrange did you, from like, what load"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2159.384,"endTime":2162.009,"body":"to what load, uh, did you change?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2163.164,"endTime":2173.394,"body":"Florian: let's say, uh, I manipulated the,uh, load of reactor for plus minus 100%."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2174.009,"endTime":2174.549,"body":"No."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2175.119,"endTime":2177.009,"body":"Plus 100 minus 50%."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2177.669,"endTime":2181.689,"body":"Uh, so basically the measurethere is the gas hourly space"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2181.689,"endTime":2185.919,"body":"velocity  at least the measurewhich is used for methanol synesis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2185.919,"endTime":2188.199,"body":"Of course, there's also theweight, hourly space velocity."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2188.199,"endTime":2192.819,"body":"But let's talk about the gas hourlyspace velocity in conventional"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2192.949,"endTime":2194.34,"body":"steam cooled tubular reactors."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2194.61,"endTime":2196.47,"body":"This is around 10,000 per hour."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2197.01,"endTime":2201.9,"body":"So this is calculated by, thisis just an indicator, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2201.99,"endTime":2203.34,"body":"An abstract indicator."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2203.42,"endTime":2209.3,"body":"So it gives you the  amountof gas at norm conditions."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2209.69,"endTime":2215.48,"body":"So let's say cubic meters perhour  divided by the reactor"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2215.48,"endTime":2218.9,"body":"volume, so just the empty tube."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2220.16,"endTime":2222.65,"body":"Also there  cubic meters."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2222.74,"endTime":2227.99,"body":"And then how often do you replacethe reactor volume by the syngas?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2228.59,"endTime":2232.88,"body":"And if this happens 10,000 times perhour at atmospheric conditions, which"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2232.88,"endTime":2236.24,"body":"is not the case because we are talkingabout pressures between 50 and 80 bar."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2237.56,"endTime":2241.46,"body":"Then this is a gas early spacevelocity of 10,000 per hour."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2241.94,"endTime":2246.59,"body":"And this is like a standardcondition for an industrial reactor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2246.98,"endTime":2252.5,"body":"And I manipulated the gas hour spacevelocity down to, let's say, 5,000 per"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2252.5,"endTime":2254.66,"body":"hour, for example, within one load change."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2255.05,"endTime":2259.13,"body":"But at the same time, you can alsochange the COC O2 ratio at the inlet."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2260.06,"endTime":2262.64,"body":"Because we have this reversewater gas shift reaction."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2262.64,"endTime":2267.74,"body":"So there's always a bit of carbonmonoxide produced inside the reactor,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2268.25,"endTime":2273.14,"body":"and the unreactive gases are recycleddue to the equilibrium, uh, limitation."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2273.56,"endTime":2278.29,"body":"So we always have some carbon monoxidealso in a CO2 based, uh, process"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2278.84,"endTime":2280.855,"body":"Kevin: So you had the one step reactor"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2281.8,"endTime":2283.36,"body":"Florian: exactly once through reactor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2283.78,"endTime":2290.47,"body":"But I dosed carbon monoxide as well as afeed to basically model this original, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2290.5,"endTime":2292.78,"body":"gas composition in an industrial process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2292.78,"endTime":2293.14,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2294.165,"endTime":2300.52,"body":"Florian: And if you manipulate the COCO2 ratio  then things become very funny"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2300.52,"endTime":2305.23,"body":"because if you have a lot of COO, uh,then the reaction is, uh, very exothermic."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2305.23,"endTime":2309.16,"body":"So the temperature rises if youare at the same time decreasing"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2309.16,"endTime":2310.81,"body":"the gas hourly space velocity."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2311.23,"endTime":2317.857,"body":"Then,  the cooling concept basically,uh, gets worse because the heat"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2317.857,"endTime":2322.847,"body":"flux, Q dot is, uh, the heattransfer coefficient times, area"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2322.907,"endTime":2324.827,"body":"times, uh, temperature difference."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2325.367,"endTime":2331.517,"body":"And if you decrease the gas hourly spacevelocity, the reaction occurs on a, like"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2331.847,"endTime":2334.757,"body":"in, just in the beginning of the reactor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2335.237,"endTime":2337.817,"body":"So you basically decreasethe heat transfer area."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2337.817,"endTime":2340.187,"body":"You have to cool your reaction."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2340.187,"endTime":2342.767,"body":"So then also the hotspot increases."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2342.782,"endTime":2347.792,"body":"Kevin: Because the whole reactionmixture is moving slower, but"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2348.002,"endTime":2349.832,"body":"producing more heat at the same time."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2350.087,"endTime":2350.927,"body":"Florian: Exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2352.359,"endTime":2356.409,"body":"Basically this initial reactionyou have a very fast reaction"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2356.409,"endTime":2357.639,"body":"at the inlet of reactor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2358.059,"endTime":2362.919,"body":"This occurs on a much shorterpiece of the reactor tube."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2362.949,"endTime":2367.959,"body":"So, uh, you need to extracta lot more heat per catalyst"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2367.959,"endTime":2369.339,"body":"volume, and this is not possible."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2369.699,"endTime":2372.099,"body":"So then the temperature increases also."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2372.399,"endTime":2377.289,"body":"And if you play around with the gas, earlyspace velocity and the CO CO2 ratio, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2377.289,"endTime":2380.589,"body":"then things can become very interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2381.089,"endTime":2383.219,"body":"So temperatures can rise pretty high."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2384.149,"endTime":2388.529,"body":"This is of course, uh, not alwaysa critical case for CO2 based"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2388.609,"endTime":2392.269,"body":"loop processes because when you'retalking about a loop process, then"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2392.839,"endTime":2396.079,"body":"these load changes, they wouldn'toccur from one second to the other."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2396.769,"endTime":2399.859,"body":"But you are always recycling,uh, unreactive gases."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2399.859,"endTime":2404.509,"body":"So if you have like a step, apart load step, for example, in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2404.509,"endTime":2408.139,"body":"the makeup gas of the esis  then."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2409.684,"endTime":2414.624,"body":"The load change the load transition ismuch slower than in a once through setup."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2415.014,"endTime":2419.874,"body":"But I looked at the extremecases and  even for these extreme"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2419.874,"endTime":2425.484,"body":"cases  I found out that there'sno, like intermediate hotspot."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2425.634,"endTime":2429.684,"body":"Basically you can describe the transitionfrom one load point to the other."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2430.434,"endTime":2434.724,"body":"At least for the catalyst Itested  with the two study states."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2434.724,"endTime":2437.634,"body":"So the study state before the loadchange and the study state after"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2437.634,"endTime":2444.714,"body":"the load change and  the transitiondoes not have a lot of surprises."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2444.714,"endTime":2449.484,"body":"Let's say there's no intermediatehotspot, which exceeds the final hotspot."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2449.694,"endTime":2455.724,"body":"So yeah, one result was that it'senough to accurately model the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2455.724,"endTime":2459.264,"body":"study states and then you at leastare safe on the temperature side."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2459.984,"endTime":2460.194,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2460.224,"endTime":2462.324,"body":"That you'll not exceedthe critical temperature."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2462.699,"endTime":2462.879,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2463.719,"endTime":2464.889,"body":"And that, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2466.899,"endTime":2472.899,"body":"also influences the reactionselectivity, I would guess, or is, is"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2473.259,"endTime":2477.005,"body":"the selectivity not really  changed"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2477.035,"endTime":2479.975,"body":"Florian: selectivity,selectivity of methanol."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2479.975,"endTime":2484.215,"body":"Synesis is a topic, is also ahuge topic because you need to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2484.215,"endTime":2485.985,"body":"purify the methanol in the end."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2485.985,"endTime":2490.665,"body":"So, uh, selectivity formethanol, synesis is above 99%."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2491.145,"endTime":2493.005,"body":"So a very high selectivity."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2493.065,"endTime":2497.425,"body":"But the side products you produce,which are ketones, uh, like higher"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2497.425,"endTime":2503.775,"body":"alcohols like ethanol, propanol  theycan be critical when you want to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2503.775,"endTime":2506.625,"body":"separate them from methanol and."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2507.045,"endTime":2512.285,"body":"If you want to sell a chemical grademethanol to your customer, then you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2512.285,"endTime":2518.105,"body":"need to make sure  that it has somequality that, for example, ethanol"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2518.105,"endTime":2520.085,"body":"is below 10 parts per million."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2521.135,"endTime":2526.535,"body":"So, and of course water, you also havelike a certain threshold you should not"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2526.535,"endTime":2529.355,"body":"cross and for the other compounds as well."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2529.565,"endTime":2533.165,"body":"So  you definitely need toget rid of the side products."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2533.375,"endTime":2538.055,"body":"And the good thing here is when youcome from a conventional syngas with"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2538.055,"endTime":2544.575,"body":"a high co content you produce muchmore, uh, side products then when"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2544.575,"endTime":2547.685,"body":"you come from a CO2 based syngas."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2548.115,"endTime":2550.485,"body":"this is basically also whatwe published last year."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2550.905,"endTime":2551.145,"body":"Kevin: Why?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2551.205,"endTime":2551.985,"body":"Why is that?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2551.985,"endTime":2553.33,"body":"Do you, can you say that?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2554.31,"endTime":2555.37,"body":"Or is this known?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2556.605,"endTime":2559.305,"body":"Florian: Actually it's not known andit's a super interesting question."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2559.555,"endTime":2563.665,"body":"There was some, uh, literaturedata indicating that, uh, high"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2563.785,"endTime":2566.935,"body":"CO2 contents in the gas decreasedthe amount of site products."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2567.585,"endTime":2570.855,"body":"But this was very few literaturedata and we wanted to validate this."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2571.245,"endTime":2576.735,"body":"So, uh, we did it in our project Carbonto Chem  and published this last year."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2576.765,"endTime":2581.815,"body":"So we did a study where we, variedthe sunga composition, the feed"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2581.815,"endTime":2586.564,"body":"gas composition of the reactor,uh, in a mini plant process set"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2586.564,"endTime":2588.904,"body":"up, uh, over a super wide range."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2588.904,"endTime":2592.774,"body":"So we not only varied the CO CO2content, but we also varied the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2592.774,"endTime":2594.784,"body":"recycled ratio of the process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2595.744,"endTime":2599.494,"body":"We varied the psychometric numbers, sothe amount of hydrogen compared to the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2599.494,"endTime":2605.464,"body":"carbon oxides  the inert gas content,the pressure of the synesis, and uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2605.464,"endTime":2610.039,"body":"also we measured the hotspot temperatureand the time on stream of the catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2610.549,"endTime":2615.699,"body":"And, yeah, we did a correlation analysisof this and basically we found out that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2615.909,"endTime":2621.099,"body":"the highest correlation, uh, we gotwith the CO2 content of the feed gas."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2621.599,"endTime":2630.189,"body":"Kevin: So the CO2 content has the highestinfluence on the amount of site products."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2630.804,"endTime":2632.004,"body":"Florian: Exactly, yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2633.324,"endTime":2638.814,"body":"So that's at least for the higheralcohols for Paraffins  for ketones,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2638.914,"endTime":2640.744,"body":"dme, two liters, also one side product."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2641.194,"endTime":2644.914,"body":"Uh, so for the condensable side products,we could definitely observe this."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2645.304,"endTime":2647.164,"body":"So we only looked at the condensed phase."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2647.644,"endTime":2649.084,"body":"Uh, this is a bit of a weakness."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2649.744,"endTime":2655.804,"body":"It would be nice to also analyze theproduct gas directly behind reactor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2655.804,"endTime":2660.004,"body":"But from an analysis point of view, thisis pretty difficult because you have super"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2660.004,"endTime":2662.314,"body":"low concentrations of these side products."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2663.724,"endTime":2666.274,"body":"But yeah, in the end they playa role because you have to,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2666.274,"endTime":2668.134,"body":"as I said, get rid of those."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2668.194,"endTime":2673.084,"body":"And this, uh, can also decide whetheryou need one distillation column to only"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2673.084,"endTime":2676.684,"body":"separate water from methanol or whetheryou need a second distillation column"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2677.054,"endTime":2678.854,"body":"to get rid of, for example, ethanol."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2679.654,"endTime":2680.074,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2680.969,"endTime":2681.259,"body":"Florian: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2681.509,"endTime":2689.369,"body":"Kevin: So you could, uh, change the CO2content and then get so little of some"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2689.369,"endTime":2696.179,"body":"of the site products that you couldbasically use one destillation step less"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2698.774,"endTime":2701.384,"body":"Florian: Well that's up tothe, uh, modeling people."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2701.434,"endTime":2706.644,"body":"We are modeling this, uh, also a bit weare looking at the separation of, yeah,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2706.914,"endTime":2709.314,"body":"methanol from the raw, the crude methanol."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2710.919,"endTime":2715.729,"body":"But the results we measuredreally indicate that the amount"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2715.729,"endTime":2719.869,"body":"of most critical side productsdecreases almost to zero when you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2719.869,"endTime":2723.919,"body":"increase  the CO2 content to 100%."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2724.924,"endTime":2727.894,"body":"Kevin: That's great news forthe green Methanol synthesis,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2727.909,"endTime":2728.599,"body":"Florian: good news."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2728.659,"endTime":2732.619,"body":"Uh, this was basically alsalready a finding in the 1990s."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2733.399,"endTime":2737.049,"body":"But this was really now   confirmedby our measurements, which"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2737.049,"endTime":2738.639,"body":"were much more comprehensive."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2738.639,"endTime":2740.499,"body":"So a huge data set."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2741.219,"endTime":2744.159,"body":"And also there's some trend lines."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2744.189,"endTime":2749.569,"body":"Uh, we also use to calculatethe raw methanol composition."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2749.569,"endTime":2756.349,"body":"So when we now look at a certain methanolsynesis process, maybe not based on CO2,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2756.349,"endTime":2760.729,"body":"but on biomass gasification, where wehave to some extent also carbon monoxide"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2760.729,"endTime":2766.849,"body":"in  then we can now estimate how would,uh, the site product composition be?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2767.239,"endTime":2770.269,"body":"How would the downstreamprocessing have to look like?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2770.809,"endTime":2776.899,"body":"And when we talk about  downstreamprocesses, for example, DMEs and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2776.899,"endTime":2780.649,"body":"teases or methanol to olefins,uh, then of course we can."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2781.609,"endTime":2785.809,"body":"Investigate what happens when weintroduce raw methanol into this"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2785.809,"endTime":2791.559,"body":"next process step so we can calculateour composition of our model, crude"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2791.559,"endTime":2795.729,"body":"methanol, and uh, then make experiments."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2795.729,"endTime":2799.389,"body":"Does it deactivate, for example, theDME synthesis catalyst in the next step?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2799.449,"endTime":2805.149,"body":"Or does it somehow influence  thecomposition of the MTO mixture?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2805.719,"endTime":2811.449,"body":"Kevin: So could you do even a like twostep reaction where you basically skip"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2811.449,"endTime":2816.429,"body":"the whole, purification in the middleso that you basically have two reactors"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2816.429,"endTime":2821.649,"body":"with two reactions, but you just feedthe crude from one into the other."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2822.219,"endTime":2823.149,"body":"Florian: That's one idea."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2823.209,"endTime":2828.069,"body":"Uh, we are currently following withDME two liter  this DME synthesis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2829.299,"endTime":2832.801,"body":"As I said in literature, this wholeprocess was super difficult because"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2832.801,"endTime":2837.331,"body":"first you purified, uh, the methanol thatyou only, the crude methanol, that you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2837.331,"endTime":2839.071,"body":"only have methanol and no water left."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2839.551,"endTime":2843.121,"body":"And now with this react reactivedistillation, we want to feed"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2843.121,"endTime":2845.651,"body":"the crude methanol directlyinto the distillation column."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2845.711,"endTime":2847.601,"body":"And of course then it becomes interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2847.721,"endTime":2851.391,"body":"What, uh, do the side productsdo with the catalyst in there?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2851.571,"endTime":2853.821,"body":"Uh, do they lead to arapid deactivation or not?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2854.826,"endTime":2855.116,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2855.176,"endTime":2859.701,"body":"Kevin: my PhD, I also tried to dosome tandem catalysis, but that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2859.701,"endTime":2864.951,"body":"wasn't a homogeneous catalyst, sothere, I guess it was a bit easier to."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2865.956,"endTime":2872.466,"body":"See what all the species are andthen connect those two reactions It"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2872.706,"endTime":2878.466,"body":"worked for to some degree, but to getto an industrial scale or scale it"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2878.466,"endTime":2883.376,"body":"up, really then a lot more researchis needed to, to really understand"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2883.381,"endTime":2886.696,"body":"where all these products come fromand how to purify that in the end."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2887.551,"endTime":2888.301,"body":"Florian: Yeah, same here."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2888.301,"endTime":2894.081,"body":"So we would like to have like a followup project  where we really investigate"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2894.081,"endTime":2896.501,"body":"the mechanisms of site product formation."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2896.501,"endTime":2900.641,"body":"So does this actually come from thecatalyst or does this just come from the,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2900.761,"endTime":2906.071,"body":"uh, reactor tube or some other equipment,maybe some impurities inside the catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2906.431,"endTime":2910.691,"body":"Uh, this would be super interestingand also to see  whether the side"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2910.691,"endTime":2913.151,"body":"product composition changes over time."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2913.181,"endTime":2917.801,"body":"So when the catalyst ages theperformance of the catalyst changes"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2917.801,"endTime":2919.631,"body":"a bit, so usually it decreases."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2921.791,"endTime":2926.391,"body":"And it would also be interesting tosee how this, uh, deactivation of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2926.391,"endTime":2929.151,"body":"the catalyst and the site productformation influence each other."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2929.481,"endTime":2935.001,"body":"Because when we plan a chemical plant,we cannot just plan it based on the time,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2935.001,"endTime":2939.261,"body":"on stream zero performance, but we haveto plan it actually what's happening."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2939.261,"endTime":2939.921,"body":"End of run."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2940.011,"endTime":2940.311,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2940.851,"endTime":2942.141,"body":"And of the lifetime."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2943.461,"endTime":2947.211,"body":"Kevin: Is there a correlation alreadyvisible that you can say that the, the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2947.211,"endTime":2951.141,"body":"older, the catalyst is, the more sideproducts you have, or is it just less"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2951.141,"endTime":2953.181,"body":"activity and you produce less methanol?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2953.841,"endTime":2956.211,"body":"Florian: no, this wouldbe a nice project idea."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2956.271,"endTime":2959.671,"body":"Uh, so this is a thing we would liketo investigate, but of course you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2959.671,"endTime":2963.186,"body":"need a long running project becausethese act de activation measurements,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2963.816,"endTime":2965.046,"body":"they are very comprehensive."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2965.046,"endTime":2970.956,"body":"So they would take for one, run1000 hours probably, and you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2970.956,"endTime":2974.406,"body":"could probably paralellyze it,uh, with different working points."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2975.246,"endTime":2982.236,"body":"But we also found out that at everyload point gas composition, the catalyst"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2982.266,"endTime":2984.276,"body":"deactivates in a different manner."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2985.176,"endTime":2988.686,"body":"So either you have more thermalinfluence or you have more"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2988.686,"endTime":2990.696,"body":"water hydrothermal influence."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2991.776,"endTime":2995.346,"body":"You could also have a poisoning influence,for example, when you come from biomass."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2995.676,"endTime":2999.126,"body":"Or when you have some oxygenfrom the electrolyzer."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3000.296,"endTime":3004.406,"body":"So there's a lot of work todo in terms of deactivation."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3004.406,"endTime":3004.466,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3004.841,"endTime":3005.261,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3006.281,"endTime":3012.476,"body":"And  also in terms of catalyst,do you used one type of catalyst?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3013.016,"endTime":3017.726,"body":"Do you think there with maybenewer catalyst generations"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3017.726,"endTime":3019.076,"body":"there would be different"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3021.776,"endTime":3027.596,"body":"kinetics, or do you think it can besome, to some degree be transferred"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3027.626,"endTime":3028.976,"body":"to other catalysts as well?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3030.236,"endTime":3034.666,"body":"Florian: Well, of course when the,when the catalyst recipe changes the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3034.666,"endTime":3039.606,"body":"active sides of the catalyst changeand, uh, the reaction kinetics change."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3039.966,"endTime":3044.406,"body":"So this of course has an impacton the kinetic model as well."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3044.916,"endTime":3049.866,"body":"So basically, when you come with anew catalyst  you need a kinetic model"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3049.866,"endTime":3053.256,"body":"to describe what's actually happeningwhen you put this into a plant."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3053.286,"endTime":3057.096,"body":"So, of course, the offtake of acatalyst would like, uh, to have"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3057.096,"endTime":3062.346,"body":"an insurance that this catalyst isworking active enough or even more"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3062.346,"endTime":3064.206,"body":"active than a competitor catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3064.936,"endTime":3069.756,"body":"So yeah, this is of course a hugequestion at our institute because"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3069.786,"endTime":3072.426,"body":"Fraunhofer does applied science."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3073.056,"endTime":3077.721,"body":"We usually use industrialmethanols synthesis catalysts."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3077.781,"endTime":3084.171,"body":"So the catalyst manufacturers, there'slike plenty companies doing catalyst"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3084.171,"endTime":3085.761,"body":"development for methanols synthesis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3086.571,"endTime":3089.211,"body":"Kevin: you directly work withthose companies together?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3089.261,"endTime":3091.781,"body":"Florian: Yeah, this is definitelypart of our business model."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3093.401,"endTime":3098.097,"body":"we collaborate with them, uh, ofcourse on a highly confidential basis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3098.097,"endTime":3100.767,"body":"So I can also not tell you whatthe difference between different"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3100.767,"endTime":3103.647,"body":"catalysts industrial catalystis, even though this is a super"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3103.647,"endTime":3105.657,"body":"interesting topic to see, to observe."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3106.617,"endTime":3110.217,"body":"But of course we collaborate, uh,with these industrial companies."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3110.257,"endTime":3114.007,"body":"They are invited to comehere, give us a catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3114.457,"endTime":3119.037,"body":"We do the kinetic measurements, uh,see how the catalyst behaves under"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3119.037,"endTime":3123.897,"body":"dynamic conditions and can also derivea kinetic model for this catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3124.227,"endTime":3125.037,"body":"And then we can."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3125.847,"endTime":3129.747,"body":"At least compare it to literature,kinetic models, for example, and see"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3129.747,"endTime":3133.917,"body":"whether this catalyst, uh, is betteror worse than what's already there."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3134.517,"endTime":3139.057,"body":"And yeah, there's a lot of catalystdevelopment going on in academia, but"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3139.057,"endTime":3142.467,"body":"also among the catalysts manufacturers."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3143.157,"endTime":3145.167,"body":"There's a lot of action, uh, in the field"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3145.407,"endTime":3145.697,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3145.992,"endTime":3146.562,"body":"Interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3146.952,"endTime":3153.222,"body":"Because, uh, that I think is also a goodway to bring the results from academia"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3153.222,"endTime":3159.102,"body":"to the industry because you're somewhatin the middle and you, you do the,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3159.252,"endTime":3162.462,"body":"uh, academic research, but then also"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3163.062,"endTime":3167.082,"body":"apply all these knowledge andcompetence you have built up in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3167.112,"endTime":3170.982,"body":"the whole group to then also applythat to the industry problems you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3170.982,"endTime":3173.022,"body":"get from your partners, I guess."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3173.547,"endTime":3174.357,"body":"Florian: Yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3174.417,"endTime":3176.877,"body":"So that's also a nice part of my work."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3176.907,"endTime":3181.887,"body":"Uh, Fraunhofer actually bridges thegap between I. The research, the basic"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3181.887,"endTime":3187.497,"body":"research from the universities or MaxPlanck institutes and, uh, the research"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3187.497,"endTime":3189.507,"body":"which is done in the industrial companies."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3189.867,"endTime":3193.647,"body":"Industrial companies, they usuallypick research up when it's at the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3193.647,"endTime":3199.107,"body":"pilot scale, and then they try toimplement their own IP and  make"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3199.107,"endTime":3201.507,"body":"their own developments on top of this."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3201.957,"endTime":3208.587,"body":"And universities  they, yeah, at leastin chemistry, uh, usually use very small"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3208.587,"endTime":3214.967,"body":"amounts of catalysts and very small scalesetups under super ideal conditions."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3214.967,"endTime":3219.107,"body":"So ideal iso formic, kinetic reactors,for example, are screening reactors."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3219.557,"endTime":3225.097,"body":"And we try to yeah, make this transitiontowards the pilot scale so that, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3225.127,"endTime":3229.407,"body":"industry can directly pick that upand do their own developments there."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3229.467,"endTime":3229.827,"body":"So."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3230.727,"endTime":3239.007,"body":"Fraunhofer is basically, uh, funded byone third from public money so directly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3239.547,"endTime":3247.022,"body":"And, uh, the other two thirds are  projectfunding and this project funding again."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3247.022,"endTime":3247.037,"body":"Uh."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3247.562,"endTime":3251.912,"body":"Half of that, uh, is supposed tobe publicly funded projects, and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3251.912,"endTime":3254.972,"body":"the other half is supposed tobe industrially funded projects."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3254.972,"endTime":3259.862,"body":"So direct projects, we have industry,and this is also one indicator."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3259.862,"endTime":3263.722,"body":"Every group the FraunhoferSociety has to show."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3264.112,"endTime":3267.472,"body":"So, uh, is our researchrelevant for industry?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3267.582,"endTime":3274.962,"body":"Would if yes, then, uh, you could say thenthe industrial, share of your money is"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3275.202,"endTime":3277.982,"body":"in the goal share, which is around 3 3%."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3278.732,"endTime":3282.422,"body":"But on the other hand, of course there wasthis hydrogen hype I just mentioned it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3282.842,"endTime":3286.602,"body":"When there's a lot of public money inthe game, then it's super difficult"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3286.652,"endTime":3291.302,"body":"to obtain money from industry becauseindustry is also, of course, also part"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3291.302,"endTime":3293.012,"body":"of these publicly funded projects."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3293.042,"endTime":3296.292,"body":"Uh, this is much cheaper thana direct research contract."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3296.772,"endTime":3299.172,"body":"And when there's a lot of, uh."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3299.772,"endTime":3306.822,"body":"Public money in the system, thenyou, it is a topic to get the same"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3306.822,"endTime":3309.132,"body":"amount of, uh, money from industry."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3309.342,"endTime":3309.612,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3310.272,"endTime":3311.892,"body":"That's, uh, what we struggle with."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3313.077,"endTime":3317.787,"body":"Kevin: also probably that theGerman chemical industry was a bit"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3317.787,"endTime":3319.677,"body":"struggling in the recent years."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3320.037,"endTime":3326.187,"body":"That probably also contributed to lowerindustry projects, or do you not see that?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3326.277,"endTime":3328.79,"body":"That they still invested in research?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3329.382,"endTime":3330.552,"body":"Florian: we definitely see that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3330.642,"endTime":3334.522,"body":"Uh, but this is not just aphenomenon of the last years."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3334.522,"endTime":3336.832,"body":"This is also a current phenomenon."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3336.832,"endTime":3342.102,"body":"So, this chemical industry isstruggling at the moment, and, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3342.132,"endTime":3347.052,"body":"we see that the projects, whichusually would make sense from like"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3347.082,"endTime":3349.602,"body":"our perspective to the companies."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3349.682,"endTime":3353.492,"body":"They are not coming because they say,well, we cannot afford it at the moment."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3353.492,"endTime":3354.422,"body":"We need some more time."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3355.562,"endTime":3358.862,"body":"There's some reconsiderations whetherwe carry on with this business unit."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3359.222,"endTime":3363.932,"body":"So  yeah, there's a lot of negativeactivity, I would say going on."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3363.992,"endTime":3368.282,"body":"Uh, where the budgets, the r and dbudgets in the industry are shrinking."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3368.972,"endTime":3369.122,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3369.122,"endTime":3371.972,"body":"Because it, the money comes later."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3371.972,"endTime":3375.182,"body":"You don't instantly getmoney from research usually."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3376.202,"endTime":3376.772,"body":"Florian: Exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3376.772,"endTime":3376.832,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3377.217,"endTime":3383.712,"body":"Kevin: on the other hand  I think fromour discussion, the whole research"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3383.712,"endTime":3390.882,"body":"into new technology, especially greentechnology, is still due to probably also"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3391.302,"endTime":3395.622,"body":"governmental funding still thriving or."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3396.107,"endTime":3398.627,"body":"Florian: Definitely also itbecomes difficult at the moment"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3398.627,"endTime":3400.517,"body":"with the publicly funded, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3400.577,"endTime":3400.997,"body":"money."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3402.137,"endTime":3404.717,"body":"But I hope that thiswill, uh, get better soon."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3404.837,"endTime":3409.697,"body":"So there's a lot of potential, ofcourse, because this energy transition"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3409.697,"endTime":3415.517,"body":"thing is one of the core targets  Iwould say of our policy makers."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3416.057,"endTime":3420.317,"body":"So, uh, they definitely need to fundthis and will carry on funding this."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3420.317,"endTime":3425.057,"body":"So compared to other, uh, researchdisciplines, I would say, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3425.117,"endTime":3426.587,"body":"we are still in a good shape,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3426.887,"endTime":3427.067,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3427.127,"endTime":3433.737,"body":"And also they, they want Germany to be oneof the first movers I would say, and, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3434.067,"endTime":3436.647,"body":"be leading in this whole green technology."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3436.647,"endTime":3439.214,"body":"So for that we need research."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3439.739,"endTime":3443.369,"body":"Florian: but that's, on the samehand you have to say that our"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3443.369,"endTime":3444.869,"body":"institute is shrinking at the moment."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3444.929,"endTime":3449.039,"body":"So, uh, it's really shrinkingbecause there's not enough publicly"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3449.099,"endTime":3452.249,"body":"funded money and, uh, and notenough projects in the pipeline."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3452.649,"endTime":3456.219,"body":"People have to leave RD and,yeah, search for another job."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3456.609,"endTime":3461.739,"body":"So the situation for researchin Germany is not as easy as"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3461.739,"endTime":3463.239,"body":"it was maybe two years ago."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3463.509,"endTime":3468.069,"body":"Two years ago, like this was, at leastfor my, uh, field, this was super easy."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3468.069,"endTime":3470.779,"body":"And now, it's becominga bit more difficult."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3471.431,"endTime":3471.761,"body":"Kevin: yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3472.084,"endTime":3476.334,"body":"Florian: As I said, I hope this will getbetter, but let's see, let's wait a bit."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3476.994,"endTime":3478.644,"body":"Like there's some damage done already."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3478.644,"endTime":3483.324,"body":"There were some projects which wereannounced and not coming, and now like,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3483.384,"endTime":3485.344,"body":"uh, the partners are gone gone for good."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3485.734,"endTime":3491.494,"body":"So, uh, there's a lot of connections thatwere, uh, yeah, just destroyed by the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3491.599,"endTime":3492.019,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3492.064,"endTime":3492.814,"body":"Florian: and a half years."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3492.849,"endTime":3493.139,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3493.924,"endTime":3494.134,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3494.134,"endTime":3498.904,"body":"But with the new governmentsettling in, I hope this will"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3498.964,"endTime":3502.444,"body":"change to the good to, yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3503.344,"endTime":3503.494,"body":"Florian: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3503.494,"endTime":3503.614,"body":"I"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3503.614,"endTime":3504.814,"body":"hope, I hope they"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3504.904,"endTime":3506.314,"body":"Kevin: in the leading position"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3507.469,"endTime":3507.709,"body":"Florian: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3507.709,"endTime":3510.769,"body":"Or get it back into a leadingposition because we also have"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3510.769,"endTime":3514.339,"body":"to say that other countries likeChina, they are not sleeping."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3514.739,"endTime":3516.539,"body":"They're doing high quality research."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3516.629,"endTime":3520.469,"body":"Uh, meanwhile this wasn't the casemaybe 10, 15 years ago, but today"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3520.529,"endTime":3525.419,"body":"they're really, uh, like pushing thetechnologies they want to implement."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3525.959,"endTime":3530.399,"body":"And this is of course also forthe hydrogen technologies, a huge"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3530.479,"endTime":3535.029,"body":"challenge for our government tospeed up their funding mechanisms,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3535.089,"endTime":3543.649,"body":"uh, so that we can still be on topand not like yeah, a dying giant in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3543.679,"endTime":3545.869,"body":"this, uh, hydrogen technology field."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3546.319,"endTime":3546.589,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3547.789,"endTime":3554.449,"body":"Kevin: So is there  one topic that wedidn't talk about today, but should"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3554.73,"endTime":3554.94,"body":"Florian: yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3555.842,"endTime":3559.262,"body":"another point I would like, uh, tohighlight that basically this loop"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3559.262,"endTime":3565.652,"body":"processes  they are like a generalthing for most of the power to x,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3565.652,"endTime":3567.212,"body":"the basic power to X processes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3567.212,"endTime":3571.757,"body":"So when we look at Methation, uh,when we look at DME synthesis, we"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3571.757,"endTime":3573.377,"body":"also do not have a full conversion."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3573.377,"endTime":3577.847,"body":"When we look at ammonia synthesis, we alsohave a recycling of uncondensable gases."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3577.847,"endTime":3581.757,"body":"So they're actually ammoniasynthesis and methanol synthesis"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3581.777,"endTime":3583.127,"body":"are quite close to each other."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3583.157,"endTime":3583.577,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3584.747,"endTime":3592.357,"body":"Florian: And  yeah, of course oneway to separate these products is"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3592.357,"endTime":3596.347,"body":"condensation, but, uh, and that innovationcomes into place, you can also think"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3596.347,"endTime":3598.347,"body":"of like enhancement of the process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3598.347,"endTime":3605.107,"body":"So  for example, by absorption onan absorptive you can also get the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3605.107,"endTime":3607.567,"body":"product or maybe just one product out."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3607.657,"endTime":3613.027,"body":"For example, in Methanol synthesis youcould, uh, try to absorb water and then"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3613.027,"endTime":3614.677,"body":"you could also get full conversion."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3614.677,"endTime":3616.867,"body":"So this is also not a entirely new story."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3616.927,"endTime":3619.657,"body":"Uh, this was researched also over decades."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3621.037,"endTime":3625.537,"body":"But with this CO2 based methanolssynthesis, also this aspect"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3625.537,"endTime":3628.057,"body":"becomes  more interesting again."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3628.087,"endTime":3630.547,"body":"And this is also somethingwe investigate in our group."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3630.577,"endTime":3634.597,"body":"So how can we intensify, uh,these processes under the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3634.597,"endTime":3637.087,"body":"new  framework conditions?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3637.172,"endTime":3637.592,"body":"Kevin: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3639.082,"endTime":3639.372,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3639.652,"endTime":3639.932,"body":"Interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3640.513,"endTime":3643.459,"body":"Florian: when we look at these differentcarbon based hydrogen carriers."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3644.659,"endTime":3650.539,"body":"We can steam reform them, uh,like methanol, DME or methane."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3651.019,"endTime":3652.249,"body":"We can steam reform them."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3652.619,"endTime":3658.409,"body":"As I said methane needs very hightemperatures and methanol, DME on, like"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3658.919,"endTime":3663.809,"body":"can operate under milder conditions,milder temperatures, and, and, uh, this"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3663.809,"endTime":3665.849,"body":"is of course also a huge research field."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3665.879,"endTime":3667.619,"body":"Uh, we are also involved in."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3668.039,"endTime":3672.469,"body":"So how mild can the temperaturesbe for A DME steam reforming?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3672.859,"endTime":3679.089,"body":"So  there we are active at the momentbecause we want to operate this process"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3679.089,"endTime":3680.589,"body":"with high temperature heat pumps."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3680.889,"endTime":3685.689,"body":"So our temperatures below 300 degreesCelsius, way below 300 degrees Celsius."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3686.259,"endTime":3689.649,"body":"And, uh, yeah, we are nowtrying different catalysts."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3690.669,"endTime":3694.869,"body":"Also mostly industrial catalysts,industrially available catalysts, and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3694.869,"endTime":3698.738,"body":"see, Which catalyst behaves most promisingfor an industrial implementation?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3699.308,"endTime":3704.258,"body":"And I want to scale up this processbecause, uh, DME as a hydrogen carrier"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3704.258,"endTime":3708.848,"body":"we see very promising because it hassuch a high hydrogen storage capacity."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3709.268,"endTime":3715.038,"body":"And we also have, uh, a publicationon this from 2023 together with the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3715.038,"endTime":3717.708,"body":"colleagues from, FAU N\u00fcrnberg Erlangen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3718.268,"endTime":3722.378,"body":"Kevin: Yeah, we can also link that,put a link to that in the show notes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3722.928,"endTime":3723.348,"body":"Florian: mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3725.008,"endTime":3728.723,"body":"And, uh, yeah, there we see the potential."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3728.753,"endTime":3735.033,"body":"However, DME is not yet a commoditychemical on the world market, so this"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3735.033,"endTime":3736.803,"body":"also needs new shipping concepts."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3736.803,"endTime":3740.463,"body":"And one drawback of these carbon basedhydrogen carriers is of course, that you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3740.463,"endTime":3743.313,"body":"need CO2 or at least the carbon source."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3743.823,"endTime":3744.873,"body":"And, uh."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3745.758,"endTime":3746.328,"body":"There."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3746.388,"endTime":3753.198,"body":"We also see the potential that we couldship the DME from the production side"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3753.258,"endTime":3755.118,"body":"to the consumption sites, so to Europe."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3755.778,"endTime":3761.958,"body":"Uh, then do the steam reforming directlyat the harbor, uh, capture the CO2"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3762.018,"endTime":3765.558,"body":"directly from this point source becausethere we have a super high concentration."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3765.558,"endTime":3768.768,"body":"We do not need a lot of direct aircapture capacities, for example,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3768.768,"endTime":3770.178,"body":"which is super expensive then."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3770.928,"endTime":3777.498,"body":"And, uh, we can ship back the CO2 tothe origin where we produce the DME."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3777.993,"endTime":3779.453,"body":"Kevin: So carbon cycle."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3779.503,"endTime":3779.833,"body":"Florian: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3779.833,"endTime":3780.193,"body":"exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3780.868,"endTime":3786.988,"body":"Kevin: Uh, one, one question to thereforming of the DME with the heat pumps."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3787.348,"endTime":3792.448,"body":"So with these higher temperature heatpumps, it would not be possible to do"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3792.448,"endTime":3797.128,"body":"the reforming of methane or methanolbecause they need higher temperatures?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3798.073,"endTime":3801.283,"body":"Florian: No methanol reforming,uh, steam reforming can also go"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3801.283,"endTime":3805.273,"body":"under pretty mild temperatures,so also below 300 degrees Celsius."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3806.443,"endTime":3810.403,"body":"But for methane reforming, I mean, ifyou look at the methane molecule, this"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3810.403,"endTime":3813.733,"body":"is a non-polar, super symmetric molecule."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3814.123,"endTime":3819.763,"body":"So they do not have, uh, manypossibilities to attack this molecule"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3819.883,"endTime":3821.293,"body":"except you have high temperatures."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3821.293,"endTime":3824.613,"body":"So for that reaction, youdefinitely need temperatures"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3824.643,"endTime":3826.443,"body":"exceeding 700 degrees Celsius."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3826.443,"endTime":3830.433,"body":"And this is, yeah, way too highfor high temperature heat pumps."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3830.433,"endTime":3831.543,"body":"High temperature heat pumps."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3831.543,"endTime":3835.293,"body":"Sounds always like high temperature,but it actually, they still, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3835.323,"endTime":3839.063,"body":"perform at pretty low temperaturesfor this process we're talking about."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3839.378,"endTime":3839.648,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3840.758,"endTime":3846.578,"body":"But would also be possible to useelectricity then as an energy source"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3847.468,"endTime":3847.678,"body":"Florian: yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3847.678,"endTime":3851.848,"body":"Today in a conventional steam reform,also the methane is simply burned,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3852.328,"endTime":3853.708,"body":"uh, but not captured, of course."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3853.913,"endTime":3854.203,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3855.148,"endTime":3856.678,"body":"Florian: And that caseyou could capture it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3857.188,"endTime":3859.888,"body":"But of course you would lose partof your hydrogen carrier then."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3860.428,"endTime":3864.388,"body":"And yeah, high temperature heat will be."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3865.708,"endTime":3867.208,"body":"Very rare in the future."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3867.298,"endTime":3871.558,"body":"So we really have, uh, to get towardsmild reaction conditions with all"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3871.558,"endTime":3873.058,"body":"the synesis we want to operate."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3873.598,"endTime":3880.678,"body":"And this is actually like the main,uh, motivation behind, uh, our process"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3880.678,"endTime":3885.718,"body":"intensification to drive these reactionsto milder conditions so that we can also,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3885.928,"endTime":3887.338,"body":"uh, do it with low temperature heat."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3887.548,"endTime":3892.178,"body":"Kevin: Then electricity as theenergy source for the reaction."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3892.228,"endTime":3892.288,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3892.618,"endTime":3893.128,"body":"Florian: Exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3894.988,"endTime":3895.108,"body":"Kevin: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3895.108,"endTime":3895.558,"body":"Interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3895.558,"endTime":3901.348,"body":"Because then that's also one more wayto electrify also the chemical industry."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3901.618,"endTime":3906.568,"body":"There's some processes which aredifficult to electrify, I think."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3907.068,"endTime":3913.368,"body":"And for this molecules, like hydrogen ormethanol will be needed in the future."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3914.358,"endTime":3919.548,"body":"That's why it is also still neededto do more research in these"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3920.028,"endTime":3923.598,"body":"relatively old pathways like."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3924.693,"endTime":3930.249,"body":"Ammonia synthesis or methanolsynthesis and use them in new"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3930.249,"endTime":3932.234,"body":"applications for new challenges."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3932.831,"endTime":3934.121,"body":"Florian: Yeah, definitely."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3935.243,"endTime":3939.473,"body":"Kevin: Okay, then, uh, thank youvery much for being here, for"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3939.473,"endTime":3941.573,"body":"this very interesting discussion."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3942.638,"endTime":3942.788,"body":"Florian: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3942.818,"endTime":3944.288,"body":"Thank you very much for having me."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3944.438,"endTime":3945.398,"body":"Uh, it was a pleasure."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3945.968,"endTime":3951.238,"body":"And yeah, looking forward, to thequestions raised on this podcast episode."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3952.378,"endTime":3956.568,"body":"So yeah, thank you very muchand good luck with your podcast."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3957.453,"endTime":3957.813,"body":"Kevin: thanks."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3959.313,"endTime":3964.173,"body":"If you like this episode, please follow orsubscribe on wherever you are listening."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3964.953,"endTime":3967.023,"body":"This really helps toshow more than you know."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3967.923,"endTime":3973.533,"body":"Also, if you want to read more about theinfluence of synthesis gas composition"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3973.533,"endTime":3980.313,"body":"on the purity of the methanol product,check out Florian's publication, which I"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3980.313,"endTime":3986.343,"body":"will link in the show notes and then thankyou so much for listening, and until next"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3986.343,"endTime":3989.463,"body":"time, keep innovating and stay curious."}]}