{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":null,"startTime":1.05,"endTime":3.18,"body":"Kevin Hares: Welcometo Innovate and React."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3.93,"endTime":10.193,"body":"In today's episode, we will be talkingabout sustainable ammonia synthesis"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":10.193,"endTime":12.937,"body":"and, uh, what we can do with it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":13.117,"endTime":19.631,"body":"And my guest today is Kevin Rouwenhorstand he's the technology manager"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":19.631,"endTime":22.331,"body":"at the Ammonia Energy Association."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":22.641,"endTime":23.211,"body":"Welcome, Kevin."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":23.618,"endTime":24.553,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: Thank you, Kevin."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":24.558,"endTime":25.128,"body":"Nice to be here."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":25.314,"endTime":25.737,"body":"Kevin Hares: yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":25.823,"endTime":33.683,"body":"I saw your post on LinkedIn regardingyour book about ammonia, and I got"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":34.223,"endTime":36.413,"body":"very interested in learning about this."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":36.413,"endTime":42.293,"body":"So what made you look intoammonia and write a book about it?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":43.303,"endTime":46.488,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: Well, I can tella very nice story about like that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":46.488,"endTime":50.748,"body":"I always wanted to go into ammonia,but it has kind of evolved over time."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":50.748,"endTime":54.858,"body":"So initially I was, uh, studyingchemical engineering at the University"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":54.858,"endTime":57.288,"body":"of Twente, uh, doing the masters."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":57.588,"endTime":60.918,"body":"And then I was looking for an internshipand I kind of knew that I wanted to be"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":60.918,"endTime":65.765,"body":"in the, in the more or less clean fuelspace or clean molecule space, preferably"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":65.765,"endTime":71.465,"body":"like the smaller molecules like ammonia,methanol, uh, and that was back in 2017."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":71.465,"endTime":72.785,"body":"So you can imagine that's like."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":73.355,"endTime":74.585,"body":"Very early stages."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":74.585,"endTime":79.505,"body":"So not, not like today where there'sactual projects that are ongoing."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":79.925,"endTime":84.065,"body":"And I remember that back then therewas this, uh, George Ola project in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":84.065,"endTime":88.895,"body":"Iceland on methanol, the CO2, uh, tomethanol, which was quite interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":89.315,"endTime":93.155,"body":"But also I already saw some, someinteresting items about ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":94.055,"endTime":97.475,"body":"So then I was applying forinternships and uh, I got a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":97.475,"endTime":99.335,"body":"position at Hot Topsoe in Denmark."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":99.395,"endTime":104.465,"body":"Nowadays the company is called Topsoe,uh, and, and they said that I would be"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":104.465,"endTime":106.415,"body":"doing something with small molecules."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":106.415,"endTime":108.455,"body":"So, uh, syngas conversions."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":108.455,"endTime":111.035,"body":"It could be either methanol,it could be ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":111.515,"endTime":114.785,"body":"And then actually like I,uh, did my internship there."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":114.785,"endTime":118.915,"body":"I worked on ammonia synthesiscatalysts for confidentiality reasons."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":118.915,"endTime":122.335,"body":"I cannot tell you exactly whatI did, but like I worked on some"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":122.335,"endTime":124.015,"body":"ammonia synthesis catalysts."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":124.375,"endTime":127.345,"body":"And then I started just googlingsometimes about ammonia, because of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":127.345,"endTime":129.295,"body":"course it was also relatively new to me."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":130.135,"endTime":134.905,"body":"Then I found this organization calledthe NS three Fuel Association nowadays,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":134.905,"endTime":136.435,"body":"the Ammonia Energy Association."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":136.855,"endTime":140.155,"body":"And then I started reading up on theconferences, all the presentations, and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":140.155,"endTime":145.255,"body":"I found out like that ammonia could be afuel for the future, a zero carbon fuel."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":146.065,"endTime":147.415,"body":"And I thought this quite interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":147.415,"endTime":150.825,"body":"So then I decided to do mymaster thesis, about this topic."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":150.825,"endTime":156.409,"body":"So making kind of a decentralized, uh,ammonia system, for energy storage."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":156.409,"endTime":160.399,"body":"So you have some solar, some wind,maybe some batteries for the short term."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":160.639,"endTime":165.049,"body":"And then longer term electricity storageyou could do, uh, in the form of ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":165.049,"endTime":166.609,"body":"So chemical energy storage."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":166.909,"endTime":170.509,"body":"When, when you need the electricity inthe winter, when the sun doesn't shine so"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":170.539,"endTime":174.679,"body":"brightly, maybe you have a \"Dunkelflaute\"as you call so nicely in Germany."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":175.009,"endTime":177.139,"body":"And then there is no wind, uh, for a week."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":177.409,"endTime":179.239,"body":"And that's the momentwhere you need the heating."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":179.239,"endTime":182.719,"body":"And if in the future you're gonnaelectrify your heating, well that's"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":182.719,"endTime":184.429,"body":"when you need probably the ammonia"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":184.774,"endTime":185.794,"body":"Kevin Hares: so actually ammonia"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":185.824,"endTime":191.029,"body":"also for the energy productionthat you directly use ammonia in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":191.389,"endTime":193.159,"body":"some power plant, for example,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":193.53,"endTime":195.065,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: Uh, that's,that's exactly correct."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":195.065,"endTime":198.815,"body":"So, back in the day when it, it wasquite academic, so, uh, I opted for"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":198.815,"endTime":202.59,"body":"this kind of reversible solid oxidefuel cell that could, you know, that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":202.59,"endTime":206.405,"body":"could on one hand make my hydrogen,but then when I need to convert my,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":206.495,"endTime":210.575,"body":"uh, ammonia back to electricity, Iwould use the fuel cell functionality."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":211.826,"endTime":213.026,"body":"that's where it all started."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":213.056,"endTime":216.481,"body":"Uh, and, and then, Ifound this PhD position on"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":216.491,"endTime":218.611,"body":"plasma-catalytic ammonia synthesis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":219.121,"endTime":222.691,"body":"And, and on one hand, I, I reallywanted to dive a bit deeper into,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":222.911,"endTime":226.691,"body":"catalyst development novel, uh,ammonia production technologies,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":227.111,"endTime":231.971,"body":"but I also felt that back when Istarted 2018, it was quite early days."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":231.971,"endTime":236.831,"body":"So what I found is that, even thoughI, I really believed in the topic."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":237.566,"endTime":238.916,"body":"Uh, it was quite early days."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":238.916,"endTime":245.846,"body":"So, during my PhD actually noticed thatthe, the basically the, uh, interest"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":245.846,"endTime":247.556,"body":"in ammonia really grew over time."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":247.976,"endTime":251.126,"body":"And around 2020, I would say that'skind of the tipping point where"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":251.126,"endTime":253.226,"body":"it came, became quite mainstream."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":253.226,"endTime":257.006,"body":"So before it was quitea fringe kind of topic."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":257.336,"endTime":262.226,"body":"So this NH3 fuel association that Imentioned before, it was part of a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":262.226,"endTime":264.476,"body":"conference called the Ike Annual meeting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":264.866,"endTime":268.436,"body":"Uh, so there's like a kind of a, achemical engineering conference for"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":268.436,"endTime":272.876,"body":"academics in the US and it's like avery big conference and it will be one"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":272.876,"endTime":278.376,"body":"room, uh, one afternoon basically spenton, on this topic, uh, for the NH3 fuel"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":278.426,"endTime":283.196,"body":"Association, uh, just maybe maximum 50people in the room if you're very lucky."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":283.586,"endTime":286.106,"body":"But what actually happenedis that over time this became"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":286.106,"endTime":288.146,"body":"really part of the conversation."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":288.626,"endTime":290.366,"body":"Um, and that's also where."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":291.146,"endTime":294.926,"body":"It became quite interesting and, and Igot in touch with a lot of the people"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":294.926,"endTime":296.786,"body":"who were already involved in the topic."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":297.356,"endTime":302.006,"body":"Uh, so, uh, both from the academic sideand, and from the, uh, from the industrial"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":302.006,"endTime":304.136,"body":"side and from the association side."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":304.726,"endTime":309.926,"body":"And, and then back in 2020, I got this,uh, 2021 actually, I got this invitation"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":309.926,"endTime":311.856,"body":"to write this, uh, report for IRENA,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":312.396,"endTime":312.816,"body":"Kevin Hares: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":312.896,"endTime":315.416,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: it's calledInnovation Outlook, renewable Ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":315.896,"endTime":319.736,"body":"Um, and, and with the publication ofthat, that's around the time where"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":319.736,"endTime":324.033,"body":"it really became big and mainstream,was also really the, the hype cycle,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":324.033,"endTime":325.653,"body":"I would say for, for the hydrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":325.953,"endTime":328.498,"body":"Everybody wanted anelectrolyzer in their backyard."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":328.713,"endTime":331.29,"body":"And, and these were gonnabe exceptionally cheap."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":331.29,"endTime":334.8,"body":"So back then the predictionswere there was gonna be renewable"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":334.8,"endTime":336.42,"body":"or green hydrogen everywhere."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":336.54,"endTime":339.84,"body":"And a logical part of that wouldbe ammonia, because one third of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":339.84,"endTime":342.21,"body":"the hydrogen today goes to ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":342.21,"endTime":346.92,"body":"So, uh, it makes a lot of senseto, to also talk about ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":346.965,"endTime":351.172,"body":"Uh, a few years later, a lot ofdevelopments have happened, and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":351.172,"endTime":356.722,"body":"what I actually saw is that, uh, isthat there's a lot of academic work,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":357.022,"endTime":361.282,"body":"there's a lot of developments inindustry, uh, but there's not really"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":361.282,"endTime":363.772,"body":"anything like combining the two."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":364.162,"endTime":368.242,"body":"So what I decided is I'm gonnawrite a book, uh, on the topic,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":368.482,"endTime":372.292,"body":"and I really try it from a chemicalengineering, uh, point of view."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":372.472,"endTime":375.862,"body":"Uh, like these older handbooks thatyou have on certain topic, like,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":375.862,"endTime":380.752,"body":"uh, chemical technology, uh, forexample, to really do that for, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":380.752,"endTime":382.882,"body":"low emission ammonia technologies."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":383.062,"endTime":387.112,"body":"So that means decarbonized ammoniaproduction, uh, but then also the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":387.112,"endTime":393.202,"body":"infrastructure to store ammonia, totransport ammonia, and then also ammonia"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":393.202,"endTime":397.952,"body":"utilization for, hydrogen productionagain, if you want to do that, but also"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":397.952,"endTime":402.752,"body":"direct use of ammonia as a fuel foreither power generation, the maritime"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":402.752,"endTime":404.402,"body":"sector, or for example for heat."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":404.987,"endTime":407.927,"body":"And of course, because I'm still alittle bit of an academic, there's also"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":407.927,"endTime":412.647,"body":"one chapter of any other technologiesthat might apply to, ammonia in the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":412.647,"endTime":416.997,"body":"future, like this novel, electrochemicalammonia, Synthes Technologies, or"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":417.267,"endTime":420.617,"body":"even, ammonia to steel, like allthese new technologies as well."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":420.667,"endTime":421.687,"body":"Kevin Hares: Ah, very interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":421.687,"endTime":428.707,"body":"So that gives really a, a round trip,like from the whole ecosystem, production"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":428.797,"endTime":435.097,"body":"utilization, everything in there, but withthe focus on, uh, low emission ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":435.697,"endTime":439.177,"body":"So maybe to differentiate it from the."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":439.792,"endTime":441.022,"body":"Normal ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":441.022,"endTime":447.532,"body":"I would say nowadays it's still mainlywith the conventional Haber-Bosch process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":447.952,"endTime":451.702,"body":"There was also, um, previous episodeabout the Haber-Bosch process,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":451.702,"endTime":456.172,"body":"but maybe let's shortly recapwhat that is and how it works."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":456.172,"endTime":456.262,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":456.884,"endTime":457.844,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: Yes, that will be good."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":457.844,"endTime":462.224,"body":"So, uh, when I read academic papersquite often I get a bit little"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":462.224,"endTime":466.064,"body":"bit irritated when I read papersabout, uh, the Haber-Bosch process"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":466.064,"endTime":468.484,"body":"and then some new process wherethey say, well, the Haber-Bosch"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":469.044,"endTime":471.134,"body":"process, it admits a lot of CO2."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":471.464,"endTime":473.954,"body":"Well, I do not personally believe that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":474.014,"endTime":477.284,"body":"Uh, and let me explain a bithow, how I see the process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":477.284,"endTime":482.104,"body":"So when people talk about the Haber-Boschprocess, they're typically, in this"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":482.104,"endTime":485.884,"body":"academic paper, they integrate thehydrogen production and nitrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":485.884,"endTime":487.594,"body":"production and the ammonia production."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":488.344,"endTime":492.884,"body":"Whereas if you very principally lookat the process, the Haber-Bosch, would"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":492.884,"endTime":496.954,"body":"refer to the ammonia synthesis loopand not to the hydrogen production"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":496.984,"endTime":498.514,"body":"and nitrogen production upfront."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":499.204,"endTime":502.904,"body":"And then if you look at the emissionsrelates to current ammonia production."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":502.904,"endTime":508.364,"body":"So mainly it's produced either via naturalgas reforming for the hydrogen or via"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":508.364,"endTime":510.044,"body":"coal gassification for the hydrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":510.554,"endTime":513.974,"body":"Then more than 90% of your CO2emissions actually come from the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":513.974,"endTime":517.214,"body":"hydrogen production and not fromthe last part of your process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":517.484,"endTime":520.574,"body":"So when, when people talk aboutHaber-Bosch process and then they"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":520.574,"endTime":524.144,"body":"claim it has a high carbon intensity,no, it's actually not true."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":524.144,"endTime":527.474,"body":"It's really the hydrogen productionvia either steam reforming or"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":527.474,"endTime":530.844,"body":"coal gasification that thatgives this high CO2 emissions."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":530.904,"endTime":531.384,"body":"Kevin Hares: But they're"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":531.384,"endTime":533.664,"body":"really integrated plants, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":533.934,"endTime":537.684,"body":"When these, uh, large scaleHaber-Bosch process, you cannot just"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":538.434,"endTime":543.259,"body":"take out the ammonia synthesis andlike it's interconnected with all"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":543.259,"endTime":549.754,"body":"the heat transfer and, uh, the useof all the site streams, I guess."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":550.482,"endTime":553.197,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: I mean, it's, itis very similar to any industrial"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":553.197,"endTime":558.807,"body":"site where if there's steam available,you might wanna use it for, for a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":558.807,"endTime":561.477,"body":"compressor or for some other utilization."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":561.477,"endTime":565.437,"body":"So there's always this interconnection,but it doesn't mean that fundamentally"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":565.557,"endTime":567.627,"body":"you would need to, to do that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":567.627,"endTime":571.817,"body":"So, of course it's gonna get costyou money if you want to change that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":572.267,"endTime":576.567,"body":"Um, but for example, what youcould do is, right now there's high"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":576.567,"endTime":579.434,"body":"pressure or medium pressure steamthat comes from the steam reformer"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":579.434,"endTime":581.294,"body":"section for the hydrogen production."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":581.624,"endTime":585.54,"body":"And that's also being used to, togenerate like the power or the,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":585.545,"endTime":587.285,"body":"the energy for the compressors."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":587.63,"endTime":589.34,"body":"You could electrify your compressors."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":589.34,"endTime":593.63,"body":"If, if you don't have that front end,it's gonna cost you quite some money,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":593.66,"endTime":595.34,"body":"but you could technically do that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":595.34,"endTime":599.4,"body":"So you could actually decouple, thefront end and, and the back end."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":599.79,"endTime":602.37,"body":"Uh, it is just more of an investment item."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":602.58,"endTime":607.98,"body":"The other thing that I would say is still,of course they're interconnected, but we"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":607.98,"endTime":613.23,"body":"should not, get out of our site that thehydrogen portion is still more than 90%"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":613.23,"endTime":615.66,"body":"of your energy and thus CO2 emissions."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":615.66,"endTime":619.74,"body":"So we're, if we're kind of keepingthem in an equal discussion, it's,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":619.74,"endTime":623.91,"body":"it's not fair because like on one handyou have all this natural gas going in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":623.91,"endTime":627.45,"body":"on the other end, you just have likesome, some waste, uh, steam streams"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":627.565,"endTime":627.985,"body":"Kevin Hares: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":628.615,"endTime":629.4,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":629.4,"endTime":635.97,"body":"And then, uh, with the hydrogen, youcombine it with nitrogen and then"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":636.24,"endTime":639.12,"body":"you get ammonia out of the reactor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":639.22,"endTime":640.9,"body":"Where does the nitrogen come from?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":640.9,"endTime":643.43,"body":"That's usually air liquification, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":644.185,"endTime":647.815,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: No, so, so the, the,uh, there is multiple ways to do it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":647.815,"endTime":653.695,"body":"So typically what happens is that for a,a gas-based ammonia plant, so if you have"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":653.815,"endTime":659.245,"body":"a steam reforming there, the actuallywhat is what is designed for an ammonia"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":659.245,"endTime":664.015,"body":"plant is that the primary reformer is,is more like a tubular steam methane"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":664.015,"endTime":668.515,"body":"reformer, where basically a hydrogen,uh, is produced, uh, together with,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":668.725,"endTime":673.115,"body":"uh, carbon monoxide and carbon dioxidefrom the reaction between, methane,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":673.115,"endTime":677.985,"body":"so natural gas and steam, using someburners external to the, to the pipes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":678.525,"endTime":681.645,"body":"And then there is a secondaryreformer, which is basically a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":681.645,"endTime":683.625,"body":"small scale auto-thermal reformer."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":683.985,"endTime":686.985,"body":"But rather than firing this withoxygen, which is the normal way"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":686.985,"endTime":688.995,"body":"to do it, it's fired with air."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":689.235,"endTime":692.685,"body":"So you kind of introduce the nitrogen thatwould, that you would need next to the."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":693.21,"endTime":695.49,"body":"Hydrogen for the ammonia synthesis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":695.85,"endTime":696.93,"body":"So that's one way to do it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":696.93,"endTime":700.68,"body":"And this process operates somewherearound, let, let's say 30 bar, and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":700.68,"endTime":703.53,"body":"then you would still need to compressthe, the hydrogen nitrogen to the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":703.53,"endTime":708.69,"body":"pressure of the Haber-Bosch loop, likea hundred to maybe 400 bar, depending"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":708.69,"endTime":710.4,"body":"a bit on the plant configuration."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":710.7,"endTime":712.47,"body":"And so there would be one way to do it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":712.74,"endTime":715.22,"body":"The other way, what you alreadymentioned is indeed air liquification."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":715.95,"endTime":719.87,"body":"So cryogenic air separationunit, will be the way to go."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":720.02,"endTime":723.97,"body":"And if you look at decarbonized ammoniaproduction, either via uh, auto-thermal"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":724.28,"endTime":727.64,"body":"reforming, so instead of having likea two phase process, but now you"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":727.64,"endTime":731.51,"body":"just have like one big auto-thermalreformer, maybe with the pre reformer,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":731.78,"endTime":736.46,"body":"in that case you would use fire,auto-thermal reformer with oxygen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":736.55,"endTime":740.03,"body":"And then separately, uh, supplithe nitrogen to the ammonia loop."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":740.3,"endTime":744.65,"body":"Similarly, if you're talking about the,renewable ammonia production, so basically"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":744.65,"endTime":746.125,"body":"with an electrolyzer for the hydrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":746.96,"endTime":749.51,"body":"Uh, then you would also havethis air separation unit, and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":749.51,"endTime":751.43,"body":"you, uh, supply the nitrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":752.06,"endTime":755.63,"body":"In this case, you have a lot ofsurplus oxygen that you're not, not"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":755.63,"endTime":757.95,"body":"necessarily using, in all cases."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":757.965,"endTime":758.175,"body":"Kevin Hares: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":758.175,"endTime":760.485,"body":"But that can be maybe used somewhere else."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":760.78,"endTime":763.96,"body":"this would be the conventional process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":763.96,"endTime":769.33,"body":"And you already mentioned thatmost of the CO2 emissions actually"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":769.335,"endTime":771.73,"body":"come from the hydrogen production."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":771.73,"endTime":779.528,"body":"So when we come to the low emissionammonia now, I think that means basically"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":779.558,"endTime":785.06,"body":"trying to produce the hydrogen somehowelse or how does it, uh, differentiate?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":785.608,"endTime":788.065,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: I mean, to a largedegree, you're, you're totally correct."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":788.095,"endTime":789.805,"body":"Uh, most of the emissions come from the."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":790.39,"endTime":791.29,"body":"From the hydrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":791.35,"endTime":795.644,"body":"So, is mainly a narrative of howdo we decarbonize the hydrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":795.644,"endTime":800.504,"body":"production, and then also how do weintegrate that then with this process."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":800.504,"endTime":804.584,"body":"So this Haber-Bosch process, how dowe get this ammonia synthesis loop to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":804.584,"endTime":807.546,"body":"also be adequate for these conditions?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":807.906,"endTime":812.466,"body":"Um, because you can imagine that ifyou're decarbonizing a gas reforming"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":812.466,"endTime":817.656,"body":"technology, uh, basically there'sstill a base load hydrogen output."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":818.286,"endTime":823.416,"body":"Whereas if you look at an electrolyzer,for example, uh, if you're gonna couple"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":823.416,"endTime":827.526,"body":"it with solar and wind directly, andit's going to be flexible, you will have"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":827.526,"endTime":832.126,"body":"to think a bit about, either having ahydrogen storage buffer or having like a,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":832.426,"endTime":834.766,"body":"a more flexible ammonia synthesis loop."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":835.066,"endTime":839.386,"body":"The combination is in both of them tooptimize the cost and also safety wise."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":839.845,"endTime":841.585,"body":"but that's really the, the challenge."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":841.585,"endTime":844.625,"body":"How do we decarbonize the, thefront end, the hydrogen, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":845.045,"endTime":845.775,"body":"for the ammonia production."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":845.825,"endTime":846.245,"body":"Kevin Hares: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":846.64,"endTime":849.34,"body":"And, uh, what are themain challenges with this?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":849.34,"endTime":853.66,"body":"You mentioned the flexibilityof the ammonia synthesis loop."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":854.26,"endTime":855.97,"body":"Um, what else is there?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":856.706,"endTime":859.757,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: I, I would say thatthe biggest challenge here is cost."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":859.757,"endTime":864.377,"body":"So, uh, if, if you look at mostof the ammonia industry, and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":864.377,"endTime":869.147,"body":"by the way, that's around 200million tons of ammonia production"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":869.582,"endTime":870.512,"body":"Kevin Hares: is very large."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":870.617,"endTime":873.047,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: that's,that's very significant."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":873.227,"endTime":876.737,"body":"Most of, uh, most, like55% of this ammonia is also"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":876.737,"endTime":879.107,"body":"integrated with urea production."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":879.467,"endTime":883.799,"body":"And that kind of needs the CO2 for, forthe, basically for the urea product."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":883.994,"endTime":888.434,"body":"so, so relatively difficult todecarbonize that portion, maybe with"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":888.434,"endTime":891.944,"body":"some biogas, but, you know, likeyou also would need to scale that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":892.004,"endTime":896.294,"body":"Uh, that's a really big questionmark, but at least like 45% of non"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":896.294,"endTime":897.659,"body":"urea use where you could already."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":898.334,"endTime":903.573,"body":"Sequester, part of the, CO2, and that'sthe process CO2 that you make next"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":903.753,"endTime":905.523,"body":"to your hydrogen and your nitrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":906.092,"endTime":906.932,"body":"So you could do that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":907.082,"endTime":910.892,"body":"But getting back to your, uh, questionregarding some of the challenges."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":910.892,"endTime":912.842,"body":"So, uh, indeed cost."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":913.096,"endTime":916.096,"body":"uh, if you have the existingammonia plants, they're"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":916.096,"endTime":917.926,"body":"basically already amortized."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":918.256,"endTime":921.766,"body":"So, so they're old plants,typically in many locations."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":922.216,"endTime":925.876,"body":"Uh, so you don't pay for any CapExexcept for some maintenance and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":925.876,"endTime":928.156,"body":"some, uh, upgrading of your plant."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":928.516,"endTime":931.396,"body":"Uh, but you just pay forthe, for the gas feed stock."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":931.652,"endTime":936.572,"body":"And natural gas is still a relativelycheap feedstock, but then decarbonizing,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":936.632,"endTime":938.402,"body":"uh, fire added two main pathways."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":938.402,"endTime":941.072,"body":"So fire are renewables plus electrolyzers."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":941.912,"endTime":945.482,"body":"Or if IC O2, sequestrationhas two kind of challenges."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":945.482,"endTime":951.002,"body":"So let me first, uh, go to theone that is for, uh, electrolysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":951.192,"endTime":953.322,"body":"So that's really the cost of electrolysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":953.438,"endTime":957.578,"body":"and, and, and also it would benice that we have some large, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":957.578,"endTime":960.188,"body":"demonstrators in multiple locations."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":960.548,"endTime":965.048,"body":"So we already have some commercialscale plants in, in China, uh, producing"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":965.048,"endTime":966.878,"body":"quite sizable amounts of ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":966.878,"endTime":970.538,"body":"So then we're talking about hundredsof megawatts of electrolyzer"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":970.538,"endTime":972.668,"body":"capacity, uh, coupled with renewables."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":972.998,"endTime":977.648,"body":"And then we make something up to 300kilotons of ammonia per year in a single"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":977.648,"endTime":981.368,"body":"plant or into two, um, ammonia trains."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":981.659,"endTime":983.939,"body":"So that's already there,but it's really cost."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":983.939,"endTime":986.459,"body":"So in China, electrolyzersare relatively cheap."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":987.015,"endTime":989.475,"body":"If you want to build anelectrolyzer in Europe, it's,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":989.535,"endTime":991.125,"body":"it's multiple times that cost."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":991.125,"endTime":995.03,"body":"So that also means that the costof your, renewable hydrogen,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":995.09,"endTime":998.48,"body":"green hydrogen, as some peoplecall it, uh, becomes really high."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":998.48,"endTime":1001.24,"body":"And that then also istranslated into the ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1001.45,"endTime":1005.89,"body":"And then the question is, which customeris willing to buy that, that premium?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1006.16,"endTime":1008.35,"body":"Uh, quite expensive renewable ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1008.77,"endTime":1011.17,"body":"So that's for therenewable ammonia portion."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1011.77,"endTime":1016.15,"body":"Then if we go to gas-based hydrogenproduction and then often integrated"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1016.15,"endTime":1019.728,"body":"with nitrogen production, then wehave, uh, two other challenges."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1019.728,"endTime":1024.078,"body":"So one challenge is if you have anexisting ammonia plant, it's a typically"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1024.078,"endTime":1030.176,"body":"a two stage reformer system where abouttwo thirds of the CO2 is produced in the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1030.176,"endTime":1034.374,"body":"process gas together with your hydrogenand hydrogen, so already captured in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1034.374,"endTime":1038.754,"body":"ammonia plant because you have to removeit before you, you make the ammonia, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1038.754,"endTime":1040.704,"body":"in the Haber-Bosch ammonia synthesis loop."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1040.704,"endTime":1044.034,"body":"So, uh, that technology isalready there, very purified."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1044.034,"endTime":1044.634,"body":"CO2."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1045.549,"endTime":1048.729,"body":"Uh, but then what we see is thatthere's also about one third of the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1048.729,"endTime":1053.409,"body":"CO2 that's, that is produced fromthe burners in this primary reformer."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1053.409,"endTime":1054.699,"body":"So in the tubular reformer."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1055.109,"endTime":1058.251,"body":"And that CO2 is in, is, is flu gas, CO2."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1058.251,"endTime":1062.091,"body":"It's relatively expensive to capturein these existing ammonia plants."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1062.976,"endTime":1064.831,"body":"Kevin Hares: Um, one question for that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1065.102,"endTime":1070.81,"body":"When you use the hydrogen productionthere, we already have this, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1070.84,"endTime":1075.55,"body":"carbon capture technology because,uh, for the actual, um, synthesis,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1075.55,"endTime":1077.29,"body":"you need to purify it anyway."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1077.29,"endTime":1079.09,"body":"And there you have to do it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1079.09,"endTime":1083.8,"body":"But, uh, what is the differenceof the flu, gas, um, capture."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1084.433,"endTime":1086.263,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: so, so, sothe difference is the, the, the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1086.388,"endTime":1087.708,"body":"pressures are very different."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1087.708,"endTime":1091.618,"body":"So if, if you are, uh, whichis with, is kind of amine"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1091.998,"endTime":1095.538,"body":"scrubber for the, the process gasbefore the ammonia census loop."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1096.183,"endTime":1101.073,"body":"Uh, there's probably a 30 bar, but flugas is probably at much lower pressures."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1101.073,"endTime":1104.973,"body":"And, and therefore, I mean, partialpressures are, are kind of dictating"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1104.973,"endTime":1106.863,"body":"how easy this separation is going to be."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1107.493,"endTime":1110.403,"body":"Uh, so for flu gas, that's,that's much more expensive."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1110.883,"endTime":1113.703,"body":"Um, and will be an add-on,on top of the existing"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1113.708,"endTime":1114.288,"body":"Kevin Hares: Oh, okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1115.023,"endTime":1115.533,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: Uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1115.623,"endTime":1119.04,"body":"Kevin Hares: have to add more pressurethen to have a better separation."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1119.508,"endTime":1121.998,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: you could,but, but then you would have"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1121.998,"endTime":1124.008,"body":"to revamp the entire facility."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1124.008,"endTime":1128.088,"body":"And then the question is whether this isactually the most economic way to do it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1128.358,"endTime":1132.918,"body":"So people also look at a differentsolutions for gas reforming, uh, which"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1132.918,"endTime":1138.37,"body":"is like auto turmoil reforming or partialoxidation, depending a bit on the, on"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1138.37,"endTime":1142.21,"body":"the cleanliness of the natural gas, howmany impurities there are, what is the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1142.21,"endTime":1144.88,"body":"exact configuration that makes most sense."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1144.88,"endTime":1148.63,"body":"But let's, let's not go toodeep into that today, but."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1149.433,"endTime":1151.773,"body":"let's just take theexample of er reforming."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1152.013,"endTime":1157.893,"body":"So in that case, rather than burningyour, your gas outside the tubes and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1157.893,"endTime":1162.313,"body":"making flu gas, CO2, in this case,you put the burner inside of the, of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1162.313,"endTime":1164.493,"body":"the reformer in an er, tural reformer."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1164.853,"endTime":1167.373,"body":"And in that case, the burner is inthe same place as where you make"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1167.373,"endTime":1170.523,"body":"your hydrogen, um, and, and your CO2."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1170.611,"endTime":1173.431,"body":"and your CO in this case, butthat then gets converted into"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1173.431,"endTime":1175.925,"body":"CO2 and, and, and some hydrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1176.285,"endTime":1180.302,"body":"but, uh, in that case, youonly make mainly purified CO2."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1180.392,"endTime":1184.532,"body":"So you have a much higher carbon capturerate already prior to your ammonia plant."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1184.784,"endTime":1189.224,"body":"so if you look into the future, mostplants are based on this, this gas"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1189.224,"endTime":1190.904,"body":"reforming with two step reforming."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1191.237,"endTime":1194.391,"body":"maybe they need to revamp also inpart to auto term reforming and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1194.391,"endTime":1198.441,"body":"partial oxidation to, to get this,these higher carbon capture rates."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1199.011,"endTime":1202.731,"body":"Uh, but the second problem is actually,also then you need infrastructure"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1202.731,"endTime":1207.304,"body":"to sequester your CO2 that alreadystarts at the ammonia plant."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1207.569,"endTime":1212.226,"body":"in the first case, uh, if you make CO2,you need a, processing unit that actually"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1212.346,"endTime":1217.476,"body":"upgrades your CO2 a little bit more to thespecs of the, the pipeline for the CO2."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1217.859,"endTime":1222.711,"body":"that only becomes economic once you havea relatively large, uh, pure CO2 stream."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1222.951,"endTime":1226.251,"body":"So if you don't do that for the smallerammonia plants, but typically for the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1226.251,"endTime":1232.011,"body":"larger capacities, and then you also needthe CO2 infrastructure to be in place."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1232.431,"endTime":1236.841,"body":"And so if you look at, for example, theUS Gulf Coast already has a lot of CO2"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1236.841,"endTime":1239.511,"body":"infrastructure for enhanced oil recovery."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1239.916,"endTime":1243.624,"body":"So in that case, if, if there's newsites that are being, uh, discovered"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1243.624,"endTime":1248.394,"body":"for a geologic CCS, then it's very easyto use that existing infrastructure."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1248.801,"endTime":1251.992,"body":"But for example, in many placesin Europe, there's many talks"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1251.992,"endTime":1254.242,"body":"about CO2 pipelines, for example."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1254.242,"endTime":1256.462,"body":"Also, if you look at theNetherlands and Germany,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1256.507,"endTime":1256.687,"body":"Kevin Hares: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1256.912,"endTime":1260.122,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: uh, the DeltaRank order, for example, um,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1260.452,"endTime":1263.782,"body":"there's plans for that and alsoCCS sites are being developed."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1264.322,"endTime":1268.016,"body":"Uh, but, uh, there's not somany places available yet."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1268.016,"endTime":1271.826,"body":"So, uh, also that infrastructureon the CCS side needs to be,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1272.156,"endTime":1274.106,"body":"needs to be, uh, upscaled."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1274.271,"endTime":1274.901,"body":"Kevin Hares: definitely."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1275.231,"endTime":1275.691,"body":"And, um."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1276.566,"endTime":1279.675,"body":"Also storage sites haveto be somewhat close."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1280.305,"endTime":1287.055,"body":"But, uh, another way would also be touse the CO2 for some chemical processes,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1287.085,"endTime":1293.955,"body":"like, uh, urea is already used, butin the future, if we want to also de"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1293.955,"endTime":1299.505,"body":"fossilize our chemical industry, we wouldalso need some kind of carbon source."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1299.505,"endTime":1304.605,"body":"And there this CO2 could also beused for, um, chemical processes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1305.43,"endTime":1308.79,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: So, so I, I wanted tomake one comment on about that, and that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1308.79,"endTime":1314.31,"body":"is really about what is the, the sourceof the CO2, where does it come from?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1314.31,"endTime":1317.37,"body":"Is it like a biogenic oris it a fossil CO2 source?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1317.85,"endTime":1322.17,"body":"And the second point to that is thenhow, what is kind of the lifetime"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1322.17,"endTime":1324.39,"body":"of that CO2 in that product?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1324.9,"endTime":1330.03,"body":"Because if you make ammonia and thenyou make urea and you put a urea on"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1330.03,"endTime":1335.07,"body":"the field, uh, one month later or,or a few months later, that CO2 will"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1335.07,"endTime":1337.35,"body":"still be emitted to the atmosphere."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1337.68,"endTime":1344.22,"body":"So I would argue that that is not really ameaningful, um, CO2 capture, versus time."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1344.984,"endTime":1348.704,"body":"You could also think about otherchemicals, like you could use the CO2"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1348.704,"endTime":1350.474,"body":"to make, for example, methanol then."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1350.975,"endTime":1355.055,"body":"But then again, if, if people want touse methanol as a fuel in a, in a, in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1355.055,"endTime":1360.305,"body":"a vessel or, or convert it to SAF, uh,for, for aviation, well a few months"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1360.305,"endTime":1362.045,"body":"later you also still emit that CO2."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1362.045,"endTime":1364.565,"body":"So I would not see thatas a credible claim."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1364.805,"endTime":1366.395,"body":"But if you made materials that,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1366.815,"endTime":1370.295,"body":"let's say there, it's not set instone, what is the ex exact time, but"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1370.295,"endTime":1374.765,"body":"like in Europe, they, they also havethese carbon sinks of 35 years, let's"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1374.765,"endTime":1377.945,"body":"say 35, 30 years, uh, carbon sink."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1378.005,"endTime":1382.115,"body":"That could then be, for example, bea meaningful, uh, decarbonization."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1382.415,"endTime":1382.535,"body":"Kevin Hares: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1382.535,"endTime":1385.295,"body":"Or if you make, uh, polymersout of it, for example, then it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1385.885,"endTime":1388.923,"body":"They have a much, much longer, lifetime."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1388.923,"endTime":1393.513,"body":"So there, the CO2 would be stored,but it's, yeah, more difficult and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1393.513,"endTime":1395.193,"body":"their costs also come into play."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1395.193,"endTime":1401.013,"body":"Again, if you had had so manysteps to make the crude material,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1401.013,"endTime":1405.333,"body":"which is really cheap nowadays,and then it's difficult to compete."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1405.655,"endTime":1405.945,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1405.95,"endTime":1412.01,"body":"And, and, and the other issue is alsofrom a legislation point of view, it"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1412.01,"endTime":1417.68,"body":"is a very complex to to, to see where,where is it actually a meaningful"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1417.95,"endTime":1422.78,"body":"decarbonization and, and how do you, howdo you grade anything in between there."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1423.875,"endTime":1424.165,"body":"Kevin Hares: Okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1424.22,"endTime":1427.4,"body":"Then let's go back again to the ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1427.776,"endTime":1431.256,"body":"we now talked about thelow emission, uh, ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1431.256,"endTime":1437.909,"body":"So that mainly means decarbonizedhydrogen production or capture the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1437.909,"endTime":1443.769,"body":"CO2 in the, uh, hydrogen production,process and then store it somewhere."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1444.133,"endTime":1451.323,"body":"And, uh, when you look at the electrolyzerand the electrolytic hydrogen that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1451.323,"endTime":1457.653,"body":"you get, um, we already mentioned theflexibility of the ammonia plants."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1457.653,"endTime":1463.503,"body":"Such big plants usually like to runin like one operating conditions"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1463.503,"endTime":1468.313,"body":"and they don't really like togo on high load and low load."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1468.756,"endTime":1473.166,"body":"what is the research there currently is,is it there are already processes that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1473.166,"endTime":1475.806,"body":"can withstand these, uh, load changes?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1476.551,"endTime":1480.216,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: So, so there isindeed, uh, some new plans that are"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1480.216,"endTime":1481.626,"body":"being constructed to be able to do this."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1482.596,"endTime":1486.916,"body":"So it might not be all the old existingplants that, that would be able to do"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1486.916,"endTime":1490.786,"body":"it for some of the reasons we alreadydiscussed with this steam integration,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1491.146,"endTime":1495.826,"body":"of course, you could like make electricalmotors, but the question is also at some"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1495.826,"endTime":1500.282,"body":"point, if you have a very old plant, inthe economic reality of ammonia of, of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1500.282,"endTime":1504.902,"body":"Europe, um, whether it actually makessense to, to produce all of that locally."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1505.213,"endTime":1510.183,"body":"I could also see a future where, uh,Europe does not produce all of its ammonia"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1510.183,"endTime":1515.522,"body":"locally anymore, but maybe import part ofthe ammonia for the decarbonized products"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1515.672,"endTime":1519.572,"body":"and then maybe for the urea productproducts where you need to CO2, it would"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1519.572,"endTime":1522.299,"body":"still be co sided, uh, in, in Europe."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1522.299,"endTime":1525.807,"body":"So with an ammonia plant and ahydrogen plant then, but, but there"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1525.807,"endTime":1529.887,"body":"is indeed already a few, uh, exampleswhere this is being demonstrated."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1529.887,"endTime":1533.397,"body":"So the example I alludedto earlier is in China."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1534.147,"endTime":1539.397,"body":"So first, uh, the company envisionthey built a 20, uh, kilotons"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1539.397,"endTime":1541.585,"body":"per annum, ammonia demonstrator."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1541.915,"endTime":1547.205,"body":"Uh, so it's a plant is maybe like,50 times smaller than, than, than the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1547.205,"endTime":1548.945,"body":"largest ammonia plants in the world."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1549.815,"endTime":1553.985,"body":"Uh, but it's already like quitea industrial size demonstrator."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1554.225,"endTime":1558.125,"body":"Similarly, Topsoe and scguard energy in, in Denmark."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1558.155,"endTime":1561.515,"body":"They also have like a flexibleammonia plant or operational."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1562.085,"endTime":1565.835,"body":"And, and that then becomes a, uh,footprint for the Neom project in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1565.835,"endTime":1570.905,"body":"Saudi Arabia, which is like a worldscale, 1.2 million tons per year"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1570.905,"endTime":1573.275,"body":"ammonia plant in, in Saudi Arabia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1573.875,"endTime":1578.397,"body":"Uh, so what you see is that today, thereare these demonstrators and in China"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1578.397,"endTime":1580.167,"body":"already scaled up versions of that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1580.167,"endTime":1581.037,"body":"So commercial skill."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1581.637,"endTime":1585.217,"body":"Uh, plants of like a hundredto 300 kilotons per annum."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1585.622,"endTime":1590.302,"body":"But we need definitely a few more examplesof this being successful to showcase that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1590.632,"endTime":1594.682,"body":"But I would say this is mainly newbuild capacity that that will do that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1594.922,"endTime":1600.442,"body":"What you will see is that existing ammoniaplants will relatively likely have some"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1600.442,"endTime":1602.422,"body":"decarbonization with electrolyzers."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1602.782,"endTime":1607.252,"body":"But if you can balance that with baseload gas supply from, from a natural"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1607.252,"endTime":1612.112,"body":"gas reformer, you do not need tohave this extreme flexibility that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1612.112,"endTime":1613.582,"body":"you would need to have in a fully"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1613.582,"endTime":1614.272,"body":"renewable"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1614.422,"endTime":1619.012,"body":"Kevin Hares: Okay, so you basically,uh, want your constant hydrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1619.012,"endTime":1620.237,"body":"stream and then you produce."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1621.082,"endTime":1626.002,"body":"With the electrolyzer and whateveris missing when the electrolyzer is,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1626.002,"endTime":1630.682,"body":"uh, going down because the renewableenergy is not as available, the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1631.432,"endTime":1635.722,"body":"natural gas, uh, would produce therest and that can then be flexible."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1636.159,"endTime":1639.519,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: Well, I don't even,I I don't even say that you would need"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1639.519,"endTime":1641.139,"body":"to change anything on the network."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1641.139,"endTime":1642.759,"body":"Gas, like that could be constant."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1643.569,"endTime":1647.559,"body":"Then you could have your renewablehydrogen being like fluctuating,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1647.979,"endTime":1651.609,"body":"uh, because the, the existingammonia plants there, it is not"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1651.609,"endTime":1653.229,"body":"like they're totally inflexible."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1653.589,"endTime":1657.826,"body":"Uh, but it's just, just beyond a certainpoint  that it becomes a bit tricky."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1658.036,"endTime":1663.226,"body":"And it's not only for the flexibleflexibility aspect of the ammonia loop, I"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1663.226,"endTime":1667.036,"body":"think that's not the main bottleneck here,but the main bottleneck at some point"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1667.036,"endTime":1672.166,"body":"is also that your nitrogen is typicallyfat in the secondary reformer via air."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1672.531,"endTime":1676.401,"body":"So that for the burning, burning theair to, to make the reforming happen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1676.753,"endTime":1681.793,"body":"And if you are gonna scale down the,the gas supply of hydrogen from,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1681.793,"endTime":1686.023,"body":"from that, uh, two step reformingprocess, at some point you're also."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1686.593,"endTime":1688.483,"body":"Not supplying enough nitrogen anymore."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1688.483,"endTime":1691.873,"body":"So then you also need to thinkabout like beyond like 20, 25% of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1691.873,"endTime":1693.853,"body":"decarbonization by electrolysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1694.303,"endTime":1696.703,"body":"Do I need to build aseparate air separation unit?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1697.123,"endTime":1700.903,"body":"And if I have to think about that,then the economics become all of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1700.903,"endTime":1702.823,"body":"a sudden a lot less interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1703.393,"endTime":1707.593,"body":"Um, and, and so that's, that's more thebottleneck for now for decarbonizing these"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1707.623,"endTime":1709.783,"body":"existing ammonia plants with electrolysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1710.173,"endTime":1715.333,"body":"Kevin Hares: And for the new ones, uh,do they then also need new catalysts"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1715.333,"endTime":1720.243,"body":"and or is it mainly the engineeringof the plant that you can, go up"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1720.243,"endTime":1722.613,"body":"and down with the input streams?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1723.07,"endTime":1726.363,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: Uh, I would say thecatalyst is still relatively similar."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1726.423,"endTime":1731.823,"body":"Uh, I would also add to that is thatbecause the chemical plants always"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1731.823,"endTime":1736.23,"body":"operated in the same regime, likealways the similar temperatures, same"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1736.23,"endTime":1738.51,"body":"hydrogen to nitrogen ratios that each."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1738.915,"endTime":1742.995,"body":"These kinetic models to, to predict theactivity of the catalyst in the reactor"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1742.995,"endTime":1745.275,"body":"was always, uh, relatively narrow."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1745.605,"endTime":1749.685,"body":"And actually the work of, of a PhDstudent that I also was involved with"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1749.735,"endTime":1754.515,"body":"at the University of we made a morerobust kinetic model that would also"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1754.515,"endTime":1759.135,"body":"be able to, uh, predict the activity ofiron based catalysts that are typically"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1759.135,"endTime":1760.215,"body":"used in ammonia synthesis plants."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1760.455,"endTime":1763.665,"body":"plants and vastly differing conditions."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1763.665,"endTime":1768.495,"body":"So from one bar to hundred bar,uh, from hydrogen to nitrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1768.495,"endTime":1769.435,"body":"ratio of typically stoichiometric."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1770.415,"endTime":1771.495,"body":"So that's around three."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1771.735,"endTime":1775.605,"body":"All the way to much, lower hydrogeninputs and more nitrogen inputs."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1775.605,"endTime":1780.825,"body":"So we will be able to simulate what wouldhappen in a turndown where your hydrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1780.825,"endTime":1783.495,"body":"supplies is basically also going down."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1783.915,"endTime":1788.475,"body":"So I think it's more a understandingand modeling of the heat profiles"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1788.475,"endTime":1790.755,"body":"kind of, uh, engineering challenge."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1790.965,"endTime":1793.965,"body":"And the second thing that Iwould say about flexibility is"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1793.965,"endTime":1795.705,"body":"indeed is really the materials."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1796.365,"endTime":1796.995,"body":"So."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1797.176,"endTime":1801.824,"body":"If you are thinking about a flexibleammonia process, what basically happens is"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1801.824,"endTime":1804.284,"body":"that you have some strategies to do that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1804.764,"endTime":1809.426,"body":"So first of all, you can decrease theamount of hydrogen, supply, or just"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1809.486,"endTime":1813.146,"body":"total supply in general, but that woulddecrease your pressure in your loop."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1813.146,"endTime":1816.836,"body":"Like if you're supplying less toloop, then maybe your pressure goes"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1816.836,"endTime":1819.266,"body":"from 150 bar to to a hundred bar."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1819.707,"endTime":1823.067,"body":"but, but this, the secondthing you can do is to have a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1823.067,"endTime":1824.597,"body":"surplus of nitrogen in the loop."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1824.597,"endTime":1828.857,"body":"So the amount of hydrogen that is,um, basically lacking because you're"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1829.127,"endTime":1834.197,"body":"decreasing the amount of hydrogen via therenewable electrolytic production, and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1834.197,"endTime":1836.147,"body":"you basically oversupply the nitrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1836.147,"endTime":1839.867,"body":"So in that case, you, you make surethat the flow in the ammonia loop"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1839.867,"endTime":1842.987,"body":"still stays, uh, relatively constant."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1843.347,"endTime":1844.187,"body":"Um, but your"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1844.262,"endTime":1847.172,"body":"Kevin Hares: that also, that thepressure stays constant and the,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1847.343,"endTime":1848.228,"body":"physical,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1848.228,"endTime":1848.356,"body":"The"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1848.464,"endTime":1848.866,"body":"stress."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1849.042,"endTime":1851.037,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: The expansion,kind of like the, the, the,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1851.042,"endTime":1853.182,"body":"the stress and the, uh, on the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1853.182,"endTime":1853.602,"body":"material."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1853.602,"endTime":1857.825,"body":"So, it doesn't stay entirely constant, soyou would still have like a pressure drop,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1857.885,"endTime":1860.735,"body":"uh, that that's quite, uh, significant."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1861.095,"endTime":1865.085,"body":"Um, but what, what the licensers forthe ammonia loops typically say is that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1865.475,"endTime":1870.395,"body":"they feel quite comfortable with goingdown to 20% of the production capacity."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1870.803,"endTime":1874.553,"body":"but going down to 10% of the productioncapacity is something that should be"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1874.553,"endTime":1879.263,"body":"more sporadic, maybe once per day or evenless, because that is really the moment"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1879.263,"endTime":1883.703,"body":"where this pressure drop and this, thismaterial fatigue and becomes an issue."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1884.453,"endTime":1889.733,"body":"The one thing I would also like to stresshere is when we talk about the load"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1889.913,"endTime":1894.083,"body":"about the production capacity, we, wecan go down to 10 or 20% of the load."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1894.58,"endTime":1897.97,"body":"What we're then really talking aboutis how much ammonia do you produce?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1898.345,"endTime":1899.275,"body":"From your ammonia loop."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1899.965,"endTime":1903.475,"body":"But it doesn't mean that the utilitiesand the power consumption of your ammonia"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1903.475,"endTime":1909.325,"body":"loop are also at that level because atsome point below, let's say 50% of loads,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1909.565,"endTime":1911.545,"body":"your compressor cannot turn down further."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1912.445,"endTime":1918.085,"body":"So even if you're at 10% load for proproducing, uh, the ammonia, you still run"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1918.085,"endTime":1920.515,"body":"your compressor at 50% of its capacity."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1920.89,"endTime":1921.7,"body":"Kevin Hares: Then it becomes more"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1921.775,"endTime":1924.175,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: um, at somepoint it becomes, becomes more"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1924.175,"endTime":1925.585,"body":"expensive to produce ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1925.585,"endTime":1927.745,"body":"And that's also why you alwayswant to have like a small"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1927.885,"endTime":1929.875,"body":"buffer, uh, of hydrogen as well."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1930.31,"endTime":1930.61,"body":"Kevin Hares: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1930.61,"endTime":1930.85,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1930.85,"endTime":1937.06,"body":"So you have to take into account thewhole plant and, um, probably a lot of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1937.06,"endTime":1944.69,"body":"that can also be a bit buffered with likehydrogen, storage nearby that you can"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1944.69,"endTime":1947.486,"body":"smooth out this, uh, curves a bit, right?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1947.873,"endTime":1948.093,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: Yes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1948.153,"endTime":1952.973,"body":"But you would always want to make surethat the hydrogen bis are not too big."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1953.818,"endTime":1956.878,"body":"Because especially if you talkabout a large scale ammonia plant,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1956.908,"endTime":1961.648,"body":"if you would need days of hydrogenbuffers, then that also becomes"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1961.648,"endTime":1963.718,"body":"a quite significant safety risk."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1963.718,"endTime":1964.978,"body":"That's a lot of hydrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1965.263,"endTime":1965.563,"body":"Kevin Hares: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1965.593,"endTime":1965.803,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1965.803,"endTime":1969.379,"body":"They consume a lot of hydrogen and, um."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1969.657,"endTime":1974.337,"body":"now that we have discussed the productionof low emission ammonia, what are"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1974.367,"endTime":1980.367,"body":"the use cases that are now emergingfrom this low emission ammonia next"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1980.367,"endTime":1984.207,"body":"to like the conventional fertilizerproduction that we already have?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1984.499,"endTime":1986.599,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: So let's, let'sstart with, with that fertilizer"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1986.599,"endTime":1990.884,"body":"production, because, uh, I would saythat's already a very big market."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1991.184,"endTime":1996.644,"body":"Also, we have other markets like,uh, chemicals, uh, explosives, also"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1996.644,"endTime":1998.564,"body":"ammonium nitrates, uh, for example."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1998.594,"endTime":1998.804,"body":"So for."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":1999.161,"endTime":2004.021,"body":"You can decarbonize the current marketswith the caveat that urea production"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2004.021,"endTime":2007.381,"body":"might be a bit more difficult than,than the rest of the capacity."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2007.951,"endTime":2013.201,"body":"Uh, so, so there you could alreadycapture process CO2, uh, from, from"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2013.201,"endTime":2017.813,"body":"the existing plants for, for about45% theoretically of your, ammonia"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2017.818,"endTime":2019.883,"body":"plants for the non urea capacity."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2020.483,"endTime":2023.693,"body":"Uh, of course also dependingon CCS infrastructure or like"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2023.723,"endTime":2025.283,"body":"electrolysis capacity scale up."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2025.504,"endTime":2028.774,"body":"but then the new markets thatare emerging are, uh, the use"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2028.774,"endTime":2030.484,"body":"of ammonia as a maritime fuel."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2030.544,"endTime":2035.734,"body":"So using, uh, ammonia topropel the vessels on the sea."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2035.794,"endTime":2039.664,"body":"So the second emerging marketis ammonia to power and heat."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2039.724,"endTime":2042.934,"body":"So there's already somedemonstrations for that, uh, in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2042.934,"endTime":2045.094,"body":"Japan and I will get into that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2045.484,"endTime":2047.644,"body":"Uh, and the third one is ammonia cracking."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2048.139,"endTime":2052.459,"body":"Yeah, which from a thermodynamic pointof view is a bit counterintuitive."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2052.459,"endTime":2055.789,"body":"So you're making hydrogen andthen you're making ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2055.789,"endTime":2058.939,"body":"Then you transport the ammoniaat the, and then at some location"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2058.939,"endTime":2060.469,"body":"you, you crack it back to hydrogen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2060.919,"endTime":2064.339,"body":"So, as somebody sometimes called itlike, you should be in thermodynamic"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2064.339,"endTime":2069.619,"body":"jail if you do this, but, but somehow incertain jurisdictions, if the incentives"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2069.619,"endTime":2072.049,"body":"are right, uh, this might make sense."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2072.139,"endTime":2076.555,"body":"But, I would also say that if you makeammonia and you can use it directly,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2076.555,"endTime":2079.975,"body":"that will make a lot more sense than,you know, crack it back and then use"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2079.975,"endTime":2084.086,"body":"it because every step basically costsyou, because of equipment, but also"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2084.266,"endTime":2086.036,"body":"there is efficiency losses as well."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2086.291,"endTime":2086.906,"body":"Kevin Hares: yeah, definitely."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2088.151,"endTime":2094.421,"body":"It's um, though if you compare thisammonia and like hydrogen to ammonia, to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2094.421,"endTime":2098.023,"body":"hydrogen to other hydrogen transporting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2099.283,"endTime":2104.023,"body":"Options, then it's still favorableif we want to transport it"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2104.023,"endTime":2105.763,"body":"over a very long distances."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2105.763,"endTime":2110.323,"body":"For example, uh, from Brazilto Europe or from Australia to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2110.323,"endTime":2116.666,"body":"Europe, it's difficult to transportthis, uh, renewable electricity."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2116.79,"endTime":2121.41,"body":"and for ammonia, since it's already such abig market, we already have the ships, we"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2121.41,"endTime":2126.18,"body":"have the infrastructure for it, and thatmakes it then relatively easy to do that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2126.981,"endTime":2131.181,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: Maybe maybe to addto that on, on already existing markets."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2131.181,"endTime":2132.471,"body":"So that's definitely true."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2132.471,"endTime":2139.191,"body":"We already transport something like 17 to20 million tons of ammonia for ID oceans."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2139.575,"endTime":2144.255,"body":"but also the, the vessels that are beingused to transport the ammonia are actually"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2144.255,"endTime":2146.115,"body":"the same vessels as LPG trait, so."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2147.165,"endTime":2151.06,"body":"If, if we were going to, expound theammonia trait significantly in the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2151.06,"endTime":2156.01,"body":"coming decades, yes, we of coursebuild new vessels that maybe also run"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2156.01,"endTime":2159.64,"body":"on ammonia as a fuel on the, on thewaters, but you could also utilize"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2159.64,"endTime":2164.56,"body":"your existing LPG fleets to, toscale up this, this trait of ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2164.56,"endTime":2166.96,"body":"So, um, there's not that bottleneck."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2167.396,"endTime":2171.161,"body":"but what I already promised is todiscuss a bit on the, on the, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2171.416,"endTime":2172.826,"body":"on the maritime and the power side."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2172.826,"endTime":2176.829,"body":"So, on the maritime side, therehave been quite significant"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2177.069,"endTime":2178.509,"body":"activities in the past two years."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2178.509,"endTime":2184.629,"body":"So, in September, 2024, the IMO releasedthe interim guidelines for using"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2184.629,"endTime":2186.669,"body":"ammonia as, as a fuel in the vessels."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2187.299,"endTime":2191.709,"body":"Uh, so that is actually the firsttime that the IMO formally recognizes"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2192.039,"endTime":2193.959,"body":"ammonia as a, as a maritime fuel."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2193.989,"endTime":2194.874,"body":"So before that it was."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2195.534,"endTime":2198.414,"body":"It was kind of on a vessel byvessel basis, and you would need"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2198.414,"endTime":2202.284,"body":"special permission to do it in a,in a small tugboat or something."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2202.614,"endTime":2208.344,"body":"Uh, but now from the middle of 2026,you're actually able to use ammonia"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2208.524,"endTime":2213.864,"body":"as a, as a maritime fuel and alsouse, use cargo ammonia if you're your"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2213.864,"endTime":2216.054,"body":"transporting ammonia in, in your vessel."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2216.281,"endTime":2219.701,"body":"And also in the same time, the,the engine, uh, vendors, they also"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2219.701,"endTime":2224.301,"body":"developed these, uh, ammonia enginesand, that actually went quite smooth."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2224.301,"endTime":2228.621,"body":"So the first of these vessels, uh, havebeen of these engines have been tested,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2229.071,"endTime":2231.681,"body":"uh, at the full scale for the performance."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2231.861,"endTime":2235.191,"body":"And what they actually found iswhen, when, when using ammonia"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2235.191,"endTime":2240.531,"body":"as a fuel, it has lower NOxemissions than normal, uh, fuel oil"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2240.836,"endTime":2241.536,"body":"Kevin Hares: Oh, okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2241.551,"endTime":2242.061,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: was quite,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2243.006,"endTime":2243.296,"body":"Kevin Hares: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2243.351,"endTime":2246.231,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: Surprisingbecause every, everybody, when I"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2246.231,"endTime":2248.511,"body":"came to a conference back in 2021."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2248.916,"endTime":2251.736,"body":"Everybody always says, oh, well,if you're going to use ammonia,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2251.736,"endTime":2253.716,"body":"oh no, NOx is gonna be very bad."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2253.716,"endTime":2258.696,"body":"Like every, every um, personon the internet who, who didn't"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2258.696,"endTime":2262.446,"body":"like ammonia as a fuel, that waskind of their go-to argument."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2263.106,"endTime":2266.076,"body":"Well, now they shifted to otherarguments because they don't win"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2266.076,"endTime":2269.316,"body":"this argument anymore, but likewhat they found is actually that in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2269.316,"endTime":2271.626,"body":"NOx emissions are 40 to 50% lower."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2271.646,"endTime":2274.686,"body":"Kevin Hares: Compared tonormal oil based, uh, fuels."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2275.176,"endTime":2275.596,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2275.886,"endTime":2276.336,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2276.426,"endTime":2276.606,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2276.606,"endTime":2279.417,"body":"So that also means that ifyou build a vessel that is"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2279.417,"endTime":2281.697,"body":"kind of, um, ammonia capable."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2281.697,"endTime":2285.327,"body":"So if you build like the enginethat could run an ammonia, it could"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2285.327,"endTime":2287.367,"body":"also run just fully on fuel oil."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2287.757,"endTime":2290.517,"body":"So if you build a vessel, you ofcourse you need to supply system"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2290.517,"endTime":2291.987,"body":"for the ammonia, et cetera."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2292.287,"endTime":2293.787,"body":"But on the backend, the dnox."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2294.492,"endTime":2296.742,"body":"You don't need a biggerdnox for the ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2296.922,"endTime":2298.872,"body":"You could actually argueyou need a smaller one."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2299.242,"endTime":2300.892,"body":"But you can just do it with that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2300.892,"endTime":2304.372,"body":"So I think that was quite aneyeopener on the maritime side."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2304.372,"endTime":2305.902,"body":"So that's, that's going quite well."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2306.142,"endTime":2308.392,"body":"Of course, ammonia is quite toxic"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2308.867,"endTime":2309.287,"body":"Kevin Hares: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2309.532,"endTime":2311.782,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: if you, if you,if, if, if there's an incident."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2312.232,"endTime":2317.362,"body":"Uh, and that also means that for thedesigns of the ammonia fueled vessels,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2317.362,"endTime":2321.682,"body":"there's really inherently safe,designs that may not not have been"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2321.682,"endTime":2327.502,"body":"adopted before, but that also ensuresthe safety of the crew in general."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2327.502,"endTime":2329.242,"body":"So that's, I think that's, that's very"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2329.302,"endTime":2329.512,"body":"Kevin Hares: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2329.512,"endTime":2334.117,"body":"But I think these, uh, ammonia handling,we already have a lot of knowledge"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2334.117,"endTime":2338.992,"body":"from that, and now can apply these,to other sectors like the maritime"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2338.992,"endTime":2345.502,"body":"sector, and then make it a safeprocess because we already have so much"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2345.502,"endTime":2347.842,"body":"knowledge about the handling of ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2348.309,"endTime":2351.489,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: I would say that,that, that's definitely correct."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2351.549,"endTime":2354.699,"body":"Uh, but we should also be a bitcautious, uh, regarding death."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2355.449,"endTime":2358.989,"body":"Um, and that, and that is becausethe, like the current industry that is"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2358.989,"endTime":2364.149,"body":"transporting ammonia, handling ammonia,that typically happens in very controlled,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2364.199,"endTime":2366.749,"body":"environments with, with trained operators."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2367.079,"endTime":2371.729,"body":"Uh, and if you look at, for example, the,the incidents with ammonia in the past, if"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2371.729,"endTime":2376.959,"body":"you look at the fraction of the incidentsit's mainly refrigeration systems, small"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2376.959,"endTime":2382.149,"body":"scale refrigeration systems and, and, andfarm systems in the US because in the US"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2382.209,"endTime":2386.679,"body":"in the Midwest, some people use an ammoniadirectly as a fertilizer rather than"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2386.679,"endTime":2389.199,"body":"like urea or ammonium nitrate sometimes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2389.554,"endTime":2393.094,"body":"and, and what you see is that reallyin these less controlled environments,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2393.094,"endTime":2396.784,"body":"that's where you get the, the peoplewho maybe take a shortcuts, like in the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2396.784,"endTime":2400.954,"body":"refrigeration system where they, um, needto fix a cooling system or something."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2400.954,"endTime":2402.604,"body":"And that's where, whenthe incidents happen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2402.994,"endTime":2408.125,"body":"So I would also say that if you go to anew sector like the maritime sector, I"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2408.125,"endTime":2413.525,"body":"think you also have to be very carefulwhich segments you first address."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2413.525,"endTime":2418.115,"body":"Like if you're already transportingammonia as a, as a cargo, probably"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2418.115,"endTime":2422.345,"body":"relatively low hanging fruit toalso train the operators to use"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2422.345,"endTime":2424.235,"body":"ammonia as a fuel in the engine."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2424.865,"endTime":2429.234,"body":"Uh, but, but I would say that foreach segment of shipping, you need"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2429.234,"endTime":2434.92,"body":"to be, um, very mindful of how you'regonna train the, the crew and make"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2434.92,"endTime":2436.78,"body":"sure that all the safety items are"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2436.885,"endTime":2437.125,"body":"Kevin Hares: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2437.485,"endTime":2443.275,"body":"And then also make it asstraightforward as possible for these"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2443.395,"endTime":2445.975,"body":"not so well-trained, uh, people."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2445.975,"endTime":2450.055,"body":"Probably they have to be also moretraining involved when, uh, using"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2450.055,"endTime":2451.765,"body":"ammonia compared to other fuels."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2452.215,"endTime":2456.085,"body":"But still, it's, uh,manageable risk, I would say."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2456.175,"endTime":2459.729,"body":"We have to use it with caution,as you said, but, it's not this"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2459.729,"endTime":2462.639,"body":"super uncontrollable dramatic risk."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2463.002,"endTime":2466.722,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: no, and it's also ana higher level of, of, of performance"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2466.722,"endTime":2470.472,"body":"that you need because if you have asmall oil leak, like if you have a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2470.472,"endTime":2475.002,"body":"connection or a hose and it leaks a bit,well, it's, of course it's economically"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2475.002,"endTime":2477.222,"body":"bad because you're losing product."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2477.672,"endTime":2482.532,"body":"But from an operator point ofview, it just, it's, it's a leak."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2482.532,"endTime":2484.752,"body":"And if it leaks a bit, well too bad."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2484.752,"endTime":2489.252,"body":"But if, if you're working withammonia, you will first of all smell."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2489.252,"endTime":2491.742,"body":"It will not be very pleasant to smell it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2492.342,"endTime":2495.522,"body":"Uh, I've been in, in, in aroom where it was like 200 ppm."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2495.522,"endTime":2496.332,"body":"I, I cannot like."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2496.798,"endTime":2498.958,"body":"I do not believe people do that for fun."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2499.258,"endTime":2503.638,"body":"Um, but, but so, so you needa higher quality standard on,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2503.638,"endTime":2504.568,"body":"on the things you're doing."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2504.568,"endTime":2508.928,"body":"So I think ammonia might also bethis, this way of, of the maritime"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2508.978,"endTime":2512.068,"body":"and sector going to a, like, likea higher overall standard, just"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2512.068,"endTime":2514.408,"body":"because they need it for ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2515.188,"endTime":2519.067,"body":"But I definitely agree it's not,of course we should be, cautious,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2519.127,"endTime":2521.767,"body":"respectful, but not necessarily afraid."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2522.037,"endTime":2522.577,"body":"Kevin Hares: Yeah, definitely."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2522.577,"endTime":2524.311,"body":"That, sums it up very nicely."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2525.001,"endTime":2530.917,"body":"And, um, what I think is also a benefitof this, is that, well, when we use"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2531.247,"endTime":2537.907,"body":"ammonia directly, for example, for power,uh, production, we can save all these,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2537.937,"endTime":2541.237,"body":"uh, conversion costs, but we can also."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2541.822,"endTime":2548.68,"body":"Become less dependent on these, fossileproduction, countries That, especially"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2548.68,"endTime":2553.18,"body":"at the moment is also a huge problembecause a lot, lot of the ammonia is"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2553.18,"endTime":2558.52,"body":"also coming through the street of Hormuz,which is currently making big problems."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2558.525,"endTime":2563.34,"body":"And with the electrolytic hydrogen andwith the low emission ammonia coming from"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2563.34,"endTime":2568.2,"body":"that, we can also produce that somewhereelse in South America, for example."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2568.2,"endTime":2571.986,"body":"Or, Australia, somewhere wherethere's a lot of, uh, renewable"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2571.986,"endTime":2576.396,"body":"energy and, uh, we can morediversify our sources, I would say."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2576.957,"endTime":2579.262,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: Yes, maybe,maybe to, to, to get to that,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2579.712,"endTime":2581.272,"body":"uh, current situation a bit."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2581.692,"endTime":2586.192,"body":"Uh, so, so the straight of Hormuz,uh, that's a lot of ammonia capacity"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2586.192,"endTime":2589.252,"body":"that also is also destined forand fertilized capacity destined"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2589.252,"endTime":2590.722,"body":"also for the Asian markets."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2590.722,"endTime":2595.462,"body":"So that's, you talk about India,Japan, South Korea, uh, for example."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2595.762,"endTime":2600.112,"body":"And, and quite often the ammonia tradeis very much, uh, divided between"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2600.112,"endTime":2601.802,"body":"west the Suez and east of thethe Suez."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2602.122,"endTime":2602.412,"body":"Kevin Hares: Okay."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2602.902,"endTime":2604.192,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: Uh, in normal times."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2604.432,"endTime":2608.752,"body":"So, uh, typically that, um, any,any capacity coming from there"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2608.752,"endTime":2612.939,"body":"would not, not necessarily impactEurope directly via supply."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2613.179,"endTime":2617.469,"body":"But the issue is that when somethingis taken out of the, uh, global"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2617.469,"endTime":2621.429,"body":"supply, basically vessels willreroute and serve customers that are"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2621.429,"endTime":2623.049,"body":"willing to pay the highest price."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2623.414,"endTime":2628.656,"body":"So what you will see is that, um,Europe, Japan, uh, other rich countries,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2628.656,"endTime":2631.866,"body":"they still get what they, what theyneed, but just at the higher price."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2632.346,"endTime":2634.986,"body":"But what you see is that thecountries that cannot afford it,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2635.526,"endTime":2639.696,"body":"uh, will not get their fertilizeranymore, and then the harvests fail."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2639.696,"endTime":2642.456,"body":"And that's why you get these,these crisis with, with food"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2642.651,"endTime":2644.376,"body":"in, in this much poorer country."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2644.376,"endTime":2649.446,"body":"So for me, when I, when I see a straightof our moose, uh, currently, I'm not"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2649.446,"endTime":2650.671,"body":"thinking about like, oh no, the, the."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2651.396,"endTime":2652.926,"body":"The gas price in Europe is an issue."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2652.926,"endTime":2656.286,"body":"It's really like other regionswhere, where the countries do not"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2656.286,"endTime":2660.096,"body":"have the economic power then anymoreto, to buy the, buy the product."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2660.756,"endTime":2664.476,"body":"Kevin Hares: Could these countriesthen also produce their ammonia"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2664.596,"endTime":2669.696,"body":"domestically with their, um, theirrenewable energy sources, or is that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2669.696,"endTime":2675.366,"body":"still too far away because of, uh, alsothe economic power they need for that?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2675.871,"endTime":2677.716,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: I, Imean, theoretically, yes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2677.776,"endTime":2681.406,"body":"Uh, that, that would be like avery ideal situation because once"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2681.406,"endTime":2682.696,"body":"you put the investment there."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2683.236,"endTime":2687.436,"body":"It's a relatively cheap asset to, tooperate because you have the renewables."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2687.436,"endTime":2688.936,"body":"That's a CapEx investment."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2689.446,"endTime":2692.836,"body":"Uh, the, the, basically your electrolyzerand the ammonia plant is a CapEx"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2692.836,"endTime":2697.006,"body":"investment and maybe downstream fertilizerproduction also to a large extent."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2697.576,"endTime":2700.726,"body":"But the issue is that it's a lotof CapEx, a lot of investment."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2701.086,"endTime":2706.576,"body":"So when, when, when things like thishappen, and also a few years ago"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2706.576,"endTime":2711.046,"body":"with the Ukraine war, uh, you saw,uh, everybody talking about like,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2711.076,"endTime":2712.516,"body":"oh, we need this local capacity."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2712.516,"endTime":2715.323,"body":"And then basically afew years, are are gone."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2715.323,"endTime":2718.053,"body":"And then, then everybody kindof forgets about it because"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2718.083,"endTime":2719.163,"body":"the investment is so high."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2719.163,"endTime":2722.954,"body":"So the, when I see these, theseposts on the internet with like, oh"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2722.954,"endTime":2724.724,"body":"no, we need the local production."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2724.724,"endTime":2729.974,"body":"I'm like, yeah, very nice for thevibes, but like you need an investment"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2729.974,"endTime":2734.142,"body":"of like hundreds of millions,maybe billions to build that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2734.172,"endTime":2737.482,"body":"And it takes you like maybe threeto four years to build that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2737.894,"endTime":2742.874,"body":"I don't know how realistic,like the short term gain is, is"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2742.874,"endTime":2745.094,"body":"versus long term, uh, benefits."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2745.334,"endTime":2746.954,"body":"Kevin Hares: Yeah,that's uh, a good point."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2747.254,"endTime":2750.434,"body":"But I think it's alsoprobably not to produce."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2751.349,"endTime":2755.969,"body":"All of it, uh, domestically, but it's,uh, good to have at least some production"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2755.969,"endTime":2762.235,"body":"capacity that, um, you can at leasthave the minimal necessary amount of,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2762.247,"endTime":2765.202,"body":"energy and also fertilizer, for example,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2766.163,"endTime":2767.128,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: and if you look,if you look at, for example, a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2767.128,"endTime":2770.783,"body":"country like India, this is exactlyalso the strategy that they have."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2771.593,"endTime":2775.193,"body":"Uh, so they're currently oneof the biggest net importers of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2775.193,"endTime":2777.053,"body":"fertilizers and also ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2777.053,"endTime":2781.613,"body":"So they import something like 2.4million tons of ammonia per year."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2781.737,"endTime":2787.287,"body":"And what they now have is this, this sereverse auctions where, uh, fertilizer"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2787.287,"endTime":2792.959,"body":"of takers in India, will, will buyrenewable ammonia from a locally produced."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2793.559,"endTime":2794.609,"body":"Fertilizer plant."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2794.609,"endTime":2797.189,"body":"So ammonia plant, sorry,renewable ammonia plant."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2797.639,"endTime":2802.349,"body":"So there's something like, um, morethan 700 kilotons of ammonia was"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2802.349,"endTime":2806.159,"body":"being auctioned last year, and nowthey're finalizing those contracts."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2806.429,"endTime":2811.564,"body":"But their strategy is basically how dowe re replace, uh, the imports there, um,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2811.564,"endTime":2813.874,"body":"so we can, uh, serve our domestic market."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2813.874,"endTime":2818.104,"body":"And then also in the longer term, howdo we become like a, uh, net energy"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2818.164,"endTime":2820.174,"body":"renewable energy exporter to the world?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2820.474,"endTime":2822.604,"body":"So indeed, you, you seethat kind of narrative."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2822.958,"endTime":2826.918,"body":"And just to, to follow up then, on mypoint that I promised to talk about a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2826.918,"endTime":2833.698,"body":"long time ago, the, I'm only at poweras, so back in, in 2024, uh, already"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2833.698,"endTime":2840.028,"body":"a Jera in Japan, they demonstrated a20% coal firing of ammonia, uh, with,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2840.058,"endTime":2842.068,"body":"with coal in a, in a thermal power"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2842.353,"endTime":2846.043,"body":"Kevin Hares: Meaning that, uh, youuse coal and ammonia in the same"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2846.043,"endTime":2848.413,"body":"plant to operate the generators."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2848.818,"endTime":2849.828,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: Exactly, exactly."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2849.828,"endTime":2856.428,"body":"So, uh, like out of the, uh, onegigawatts plant, 800 megawatt was"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2856.428,"endTime":2861.348,"body":"produced via d coal input and,and 200 via d ammonia, so to say."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2861.438,"endTime":2863.958,"body":"So it's, it was mixed inthe, in the, in the chambers."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2864.249,"endTime":2867.474,"body":"and, and it demonstrated thisfor three months with different"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2867.774,"endTime":2871.273,"body":"variations of conditions justto, demonstrate technology."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2871.603,"endTime":2875.263,"body":"Uh, but what is quite interestinghere is this really a large scale, the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2875.263,"endTime":2877.873,"body":"largest possible skill you could have."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2878.378,"endTime":2882.793,"body":"And, and, uh, now they willactually also, uh, commercialize"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2882.793,"endTime":2884.083,"body":"this and do this for real."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2884.263,"endTime":2889.353,"body":"So, by 2030, they got this contractfor difference, uh, by the Japanese"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2889.353,"endTime":2893.343,"body":"government, um, which means it's thatbasically the cost difference between"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2893.343,"endTime":2897.933,"body":"the, the, the energy price for, fromthe coal and the, and the ammonia price."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2898.321,"endTime":2901.801,"body":"for, for the electricity generation that'sbeing compensated by the, by the Japanese"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2901.801,"endTime":2902.371,"body":"government,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2902.646,"endTime":2905.986,"body":"Kevin Hares: is that differentabout like roughly at the moment?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2906.889,"endTime":2909.739,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: oh, it's, it's, itis, it's, it is very, very significant."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2910.131,"endTime":2915.827,"body":"because if you think about the, theprocess is you, you start with, with"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2915.857,"endTime":2920.267,"body":"ammonia, which contains a lot of energy,and then you go to electricity, which in a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2920.267,"endTime":2926.597,"body":"terminal power plant, uh, is maybe 35, 40%or maybe a little bit above efficiency,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2926.597,"endTime":2928.097,"body":"but also not much more than that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2928.607,"endTime":2935.027,"body":"So basically you destroy a lotof your, your energy to heat, um,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2935.027,"endTime":2936.287,"body":"which you're not using efficiently."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2936.287,"endTime":2941.447,"body":"So that, that's maybe not, not even themost, the, the first thing I would think"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2941.447,"endTime":2946.037,"body":"about, uh, from an efficiency pointof view to, to use ammonia for power."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2946.52,"endTime":2951.29,"body":"but what I also feel like is todaythere, there is the demonstration"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2951.29,"endTime":2952.61,"body":"with thermal power plants."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2953.03,"endTime":2957.308,"body":"Uh, but in the future there isalso gonna be combined cycle, gas"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2957.308,"endTime":2958.821,"body":"turbines bytes fueled with ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2959.241,"endTime":2963.951,"body":"So I was, I was in Japan last month, uh,and I went to this site where they do all"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2963.951,"endTime":2966.111,"body":"these demonstrations and very fascinating."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2966.381,"endTime":2970.781,"body":"So also the burners that we just talkedabout, uh, with the 20% ammonia co-firing,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2971.361,"endTime":2975.501,"body":"I actually saw the actual burnersthat they tested, um, at that site."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2975.831,"endTime":2979.761,"body":"And also they had like a two megawattgas turbine, uh, fueled by a hundred"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2979.761,"endTime":2981.441,"body":"percent ammonia already on that site."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2982.341,"endTime":2983.541,"body":"But they also worked together."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2983.541,"endTime":2987.391,"body":"So there was IHI and they alsoworked together with GE Vernova."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2987.411,"endTime":2988.191,"body":"One of these."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2988.551,"endTime":2992.271,"body":"These, uh, OEMs for, uh,large scale gas turbine bines."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2992.631,"endTime":2996.951,"body":"And actually this week they, uh, theyannounced that they did a hundred"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":2996.951,"endTime":3001.821,"body":"percent ammonia firing for the Fclass, gas turbines of GE Vernova."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3002.19,"endTime":3005.574,"body":"And, and the interesting part forthat is that when they get that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3005.694,"endTime":3009.804,"body":"commercialized around 2030, they couldactually, instead of using these thermo"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3009.804,"endTime":3013.554,"body":"power plants where they coal-fireammonia, they could build gas turbine"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3013.554,"endTime":3016.974,"body":"bines on a combined cycle basis fuelswith ammonia, which are much more"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3016.974,"endTime":3020.304,"body":"efficient, maybe up to like 55, 60% for"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3020.624,"endTime":3021.249,"body":"Kevin Hares: That makes a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3021.534,"endTime":3023.574,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: uh,rather than this 35, 40%."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3023.574,"endTime":3027.144,"body":"So you're, you're throwing away lessmoney when you, when you burn the ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3027.569,"endTime":3031.619,"body":"If we look more at it like aEuropean context, I would say,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3032.459,"endTime":3036.989,"body":"uh, Europe is of course importingless, uh, of its energy than Japan."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3037.487,"endTime":3040.697,"body":"And Japan also being a bit of a uniquesituation where there is also no"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3040.697,"endTime":3043.487,"body":"nuclear, uh, power in the, in the grid."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3043.799,"endTime":3047.827,"body":"In Europe, I think ammonia might actuallyplay an interesting role as a peaker"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3047.827,"endTime":3050.077,"body":"plant for, for the electricity grid."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3050.077,"endTime":3054.127,"body":"So, and the long term, so if youreally penetrate a lot of renewables"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3054.127,"endTime":3059.447,"body":"into the grid, and you also acceleratebattery deployment, then you can do"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3059.447,"endTime":3062.747,"body":"maybe like 90, 95% decarbonization."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3063.361,"endTime":3067.351,"body":"But this last 5% or so, that'swhere you, where you need to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3067.351,"endTime":3068.671,"body":"peaker plants the backup power."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3068.671,"endTime":3072.871,"body":"So what I already alluded to in thebeginning with the master thesis is,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3073.291,"endTime":3076.291,"body":"uh, you have this \"Dunkelflaute\" inthe winter where the wind isn't blowing"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3076.291,"endTime":3081.091,"body":"so much and the sun isn't shining somuch and it's in terribly cold day."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3081.691,"endTime":3086.641,"body":"Everybody has bought heat pumps insteadof their normal gas heated assistance."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3086.671,"endTime":3088.771,"body":"So they, they, they willuse a lot of electricity."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3088.831,"endTime":3093.421,"body":"And, and so for this last portion of yourgrid, that is where maybe you want to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3093.421,"endTime":3098.791,"body":"have like these backup gas turbine buyingpeaker plants, uh, based on ammonia that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3098.791,"endTime":3100.651,"body":"could then provide that last bit of."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3101.071,"endTime":3102.551,"body":"Uh, green electrons."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3103.906,"endTime":3109.651,"body":"Kevin Hares: I think, um, in this, uh,regard also the hydrogen peaker plants"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3109.651,"endTime":3112.501,"body":"are also, um, in the same context."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3112.561,"endTime":3116.281,"body":"And there it is, I would sayclose to the shore where we"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3116.281,"endTime":3118.501,"body":"would, uh, import, uh, ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3118.501,"endTime":3122.101,"body":"Then it's a no brainer to usethose, uh, ammonia fired plants."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3122.101,"endTime":3125.641,"body":"But when we are more like within."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3126.406,"endTime":3132.616,"body":"Where we have to transport also theammonia somehow, then maybe it's, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3132.736,"endTime":3136.726,"body":"worth to look at again to, to crackit and then use hydrogen pipelines."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3137.146,"endTime":3142.246,"body":"Uh, or do you see also ammoniapipelines going through Europe?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3142.657,"endTime":3144.568,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: Well, so,so, so that, that's, that's an"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3144.568,"endTime":3146.428,"body":"entirely different discussion."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3146.428,"endTime":3150.178,"body":"But first of all, the, the scenarioyou, you described in the port"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3150.178,"endTime":3151.438,"body":"area, it could make a lot of sense."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3152.579,"endTime":3155.885,"body":"If you, if you look at, for example,Rotterdam, which, which is also a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3155.885,"endTime":3160.025,"body":"bunkering port for, uh, maritimefuels, where also probably ammonia"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3160.025,"endTime":3164.075,"body":"will be fueled, um, into bunker,into vessels in the coming years."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3164.555,"endTime":3168.935,"body":"Uh, then you can imagine that thatstorage vessel that is also, um, used"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3168.935,"endTime":3173.405,"body":"to, you know, uh, fuel the, these,these vessels via like a bunkering"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3173.405,"endTime":3177.635,"body":"vessel that could also have a, apipeline to, to a gas turbine or"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3177.635,"endTime":3179.975,"body":"peaker plants running on ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3180.935,"endTime":3184.805,"body":"Um, because if, if you, one thingto also consider if you have a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3184.805,"endTime":3188.675,"body":"peaker plant, it's not going torun a lot of hours during the year."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3188.675,"endTime":3194.705,"body":"So if you just build a storage facility ofammonia, or also like in case of hydrogen,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3194.705,"endTime":3198.995,"body":"if you just build a storage facilityjust for a peaker plant, it, it's a very"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3198.995,"endTime":3203.975,"body":"uneconomic investment because it's kindof a facility that you almost never use."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3204.275,"endTime":3207.665,"body":"So if you can tap into existinginfrastructure for, in a port"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3207.665,"endTime":3210.205,"body":"area that makes a lot of sense,you can, you can hook up to it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3211.16,"endTime":3214.47,"body":"But then if you go more inland,maybe there are locations, in"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3214.47,"endTime":3218.061,"body":"chemical industries in Germany, forexample, in the Ruhrgebiet, where"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3218.121,"endTime":3219.951,"body":"there is already ammonia storage."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3220.281,"endTime":3224.896,"body":"So like these chemical derivatives ofammonia going by the, these, these,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3224.901,"endTime":3227.026,"body":"uh, barches uh, of the Rhine today."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3227.716,"endTime":3230.686,"body":"So, so there it could make a lot ofsense, but I totally agree with you."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3230.686,"endTime":3235.586,"body":"If there is a region where there'sa hydrogen grid already and, and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3235.586,"endTime":3240.416,"body":"there is no ammonia infrastructure,it's maybe less logical to have an"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3240.416,"endTime":3242.528,"body":"ammonia field, backup power plant."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3242.783,"endTime":3247.163,"body":"Kevin Hares: Yeah, but that, uh, alsowhat you just said with the ammonia"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3247.193,"endTime":3252.863,"body":"tank, I think it's also relativelyeasy to store ammonia in like a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3252.863,"endTime":3256.763,"body":"tank compared to hydrogen, whereyou have to have a large pressure"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3256.763,"endTime":3259.883,"body":"vessel, which has much other risks."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3260.013,"endTime":3264.813,"body":"and then if you really, um, properlyplan this whole situation, then it"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3264.813,"endTime":3269.643,"body":"might be possible to, since it's notrunning so long, maybe for a couple of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3269.643,"endTime":3276.153,"body":"days, and then, uh, you can just supplyit with the tank for like in place."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3276.243,"endTime":3278.523,"body":"But yeah, it depends on the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3278.598,"endTime":3279.918,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: That could be possible."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3281.118,"endTime":3285.688,"body":"Uh, and just coming back a bit to, tothe, pipeline, so the ammonia pipeline."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3286.073,"endTime":3287.771,"body":"I think that's technically possible."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3287.771,"endTime":3292.991,"body":"And also the, the ISPT in the Netherlands,they did a study a few years ago,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3293.201,"endTime":3296.981,"body":"uh, basically what the state of theart ammonia pipeline would look like."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3297.671,"endTime":3300.941,"body":"And there's all kinds of safety systemsor like enhancements you could think"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3300.941,"endTime":3306.071,"body":"about, uh, to minimize also, uh, kind ofthe exposure in case of, of an incident."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3306.071,"endTime":3311.313,"body":"So think like piping pipe designsor other safety, uh, measures."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3311.823,"endTime":3315.663,"body":"Um, what I would say is, if I lookat the incidents, uh, with ammonia"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3315.663,"endTime":3318.555,"body":"pipelines is that when they're very new."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3319.296,"endTime":3321.216,"body":"There's usually not, not an issue."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3321.467,"endTime":3325.227,"body":"but it's really the monitoringof the, of the pipelines over"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3325.227,"endTime":3327.027,"body":"time that is very important."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3327.027,"endTime":3331.347,"body":"If there's any, whether there's anycracks, whether there's any, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3331.377,"endTime":3335.157,"body":"degradation, uh, because you seein, in, in regions where there's"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3335.157,"endTime":3337.581,"body":"maybe a bit less, control on that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3338.001,"endTime":3340.911,"body":"That's where the incidentshappen after like 50 years or"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3341.166,"endTime":3344.796,"body":"Kevin Hares: Okay, so it was moreto keep track of everything and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3344.796,"endTime":3346.776,"body":"then not have incidents later on."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3347.556,"endTime":3348.066,"body":"Interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3348.066,"endTime":3348.126,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3348.591,"endTime":3348.861,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: Yes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3348.866,"endTime":3353.871,"body":"And, and, and, and this can be likerelatively, uh, stupid incidents where,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3354.141,"endTime":3357.741,"body":"um, let me tell a few stories therebecause, uh, it is quite interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3357.741,"endTime":3362.521,"body":"So, it can be excavation for example,where people don't look at the map and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3362.521,"endTime":3367.831,"body":"then they bump into, into a pipelineand, and then, you know, like, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3367.891,"endTime":3371.581,"body":"they, they have an incident, butif they did properly checked, there"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3371.581,"endTime":3373.021,"body":"would not be this, this incident."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3373.523,"endTime":3377.393,"body":"But the second example I wanted to giveis a, is a quite interesting story."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3378.023,"endTime":3382.313,"body":"'cause in some small village in, inthe US I believe it was, uh, there"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3382.313,"endTime":3386.033,"body":"was this, this kind of story thatthere was gold inside these pipelines,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3387.533,"endTime":3391.648,"body":"and then some kids believed thatand it rolled a hole in the pipe."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3392.053,"endTime":3392.343,"body":"Kevin Hares: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3392.698,"endTime":3394.078,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: So,so, so that kind of."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3395.573,"endTime":3398.728,"body":"Kevin Hares: Yeah, that's a verybad idea to drill into a pipeline."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3399.981,"endTime":3403.281,"body":"Still also when it's there for along time, then maybe people also"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3403.311,"endTime":3409.101,"body":"forget about the risks, but that, uh,come with the ammonia and, uh, yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3409.101,"endTime":3411.951,"body":"Also you mentioned standards a lot."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3411.951,"endTime":3416.721,"body":"We are currently looking intostandardization of all this,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3416.721,"endTime":3420.861,"body":"uh, ammonia infrastructure,production and, uh, utilization."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3421.281,"endTime":3425.271,"body":"With the standardizationorganizations in Germany."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3425.271,"endTime":3428.391,"body":"There's going to be aroadmap for that soon."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3428.541,"endTime":3432.976,"body":"And then we will look at, uh, what wealready have, because we already have"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3433.066,"endTime":3439.156,"body":"ammonia in the industry for a long time,and then we look into what new standards"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3439.156,"endTime":3444.286,"body":"need to be developed to also cover allthese new, uh, applications that will"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3444.286,"endTime":3446.416,"body":"come from the low emission ammonia use."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3447.017,"endTime":3449.472,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: And, and we havesomething very similar in the Netherlands"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3449.472,"endTime":3454.392,"body":"as well, uh, where a few years ago wehad the update, update for the PTs 12."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3455.172,"endTime":3458.262,"body":"So, um, this is for ammonia storage, so."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3458.722,"endTime":3461.422,"body":"The last ammonia storageterminal was, was built a few"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3461.422,"endTime":3463.102,"body":"decades ago in the Netherlands."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3463.552,"endTime":3470.362,"body":"And so when ammonia was being reintroducedas this kind of commodity that will"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3470.362,"endTime":3474.382,"body":"be very relevant for the future,uh, the first thing that needed to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3474.382,"endTime":3475.792,"body":"happen is to update the standards."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3475.792,"endTime":3479.812,"body":"Like how do you build a state,state-of-the-art ammonia storage terminal?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3480.472,"endTime":3483.637,"body":"And what was very important in theNetherlands is that we used the,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3483.642,"endTime":3488.242,"body":"the portal model where basically allthe stakeholders, uh, get together."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3488.302,"endTime":3493.222,"body":"So it wasn't just industry, it was, it wasbasically the, the permitting authorities,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3493.222,"endTime":3497.392,"body":"the governments, the industry comingtogether, um, and basically together"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3497.512,"endTime":3502.8,"body":"discussing the design that was, allowablefor everybody, appropriate for everybody."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3503.16,"endTime":3508.35,"body":"And, and with this, they also went outtogether and talked to local communities"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3508.35,"endTime":3511.806,"body":"like, \" Hey, it's not just a companythat wants to build this project that"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3511.806,"endTime":3517.776,"body":"is saying this is a. Uh, an inherentlysafe design, but it's also the permitting"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3517.866,"endTime":3522.006,"body":"authorities who, who signed off on this.\"So, and that's kind of the narrative"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3522.006,"endTime":3523.776,"body":"in the Netherlands for updating this."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3524.136,"endTime":3528.286,"body":"And also from a more global point ofview now there are standardization"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3528.286,"endTime":3533.086,"body":"in the works on carbon footprintof hydrogen and, and ammonia."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3533.506,"endTime":3536.866,"body":"And personally, I've also been quiteinvolved with the ammonia portion of that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3536.866,"endTime":3540.896,"body":"So last year we had some meetings,with people from all countries around"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3540.926,"endTime":3545.496,"body":"the world to also make sure that thisaligns with the, with the demands"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3545.496,"endTime":3547.596,"body":"also from the different jurisdictions."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3547.956,"endTime":3551.346,"body":"Of course, this is a globalstandard and all the countries"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3551.346,"endTime":3553.896,"body":"and all the jurisdictions havealready come up with their own"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3553.896,"endTime":3555.636,"body":"rules in the past 10 years or so."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3555.966,"endTime":3559.536,"body":"So it'll be very difficult toharmonize that anytime soon."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3559.864,"endTime":3563.677,"body":"but there is some standardization that,that is happening, so that's, that's very"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3563.677,"endTime":3564.307,"body":"good news."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3564.544,"endTime":3564.754,"body":"Kevin Hares: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3564.754,"endTime":3569.407,"body":"It's, uh, also very important, in thecase of ammonia for the acceptance"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3569.407,"endTime":3573.667,"body":"that when people know that there arethese standards that they can rely on,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3574.057,"endTime":3577.537,"body":"that, uh, ensures a bit more safety."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3577.837,"endTime":3582.927,"body":"And, uh, as you mentioned also thiswhole accounting of emissions has to be"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3582.927,"endTime":3589.268,"body":"standardized because if we don't followthe same rules, it's really difficult to"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3589.358,"endTime":3594.463,"body":"make an impact globally if some peoplejust play with other rules and then"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3595.098,"endTime":3597.228,"body":"The atmosphere is for the whole globe."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3597.228,"endTime":3603.661,"body":"So we all have to basically, um, pull onone string there to really make an impact."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3603.751,"endTime":3606.001,"body":"And not just Europe for example."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3606.42,"endTime":3608.411,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: And, and that'sexactly the, the thing that I also"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3608.411,"endTime":3611.681,"body":"mentioned about is the CO2 utilization."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3612.011,"endTime":3615.936,"body":"Well, if, if, if one company claims thatthat is a great reduction, whereas the."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3616.556,"endTime":3621.026,"body":"Whereas the, another region in the worldsays this is, this doesn't make any sense."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3621.446,"endTime":3626.216,"body":"Then, you know, like you quite quicklyget into this discussion of greenwashing"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3626.216,"endTime":3627.446,"body":"and, and, and that kind of things."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3627.446,"endTime":3631.946,"body":"And then people are, are veryupset, um, uh, when you get kind of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3631.946,"endTime":3634.226,"body":"alarmists and newsletters about that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3634.556,"endTime":3636.276,"body":"Uh, and that's kind ofwhat you want to prevent."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3636.516,"endTime":3636.986,"body":"Uh, in general."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3637.091,"endTime":3637.481,"body":"Kevin Hares: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3637.901,"endTime":3638.081,"body":"yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3638.086,"endTime":3638.356,"body":"Definitely."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3638.356,"endTime":3640.841,"body":"That's, uh, also a good point."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3640.991,"endTime":3647.171,"body":"And uh, now we can come to the closingquestion, uh, which is always, what is"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3647.171,"endTime":3649.451,"body":"your favorite discovery in chemistry?"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3650.041,"endTime":3652.261,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: I, I think thathas to be, of course we talk about"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3652.261,"endTime":3655.651,"body":"ammonia, so it has to be the,the Haber-Bosch process and, and,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3655.651,"endTime":3657.091,"body":"and everything that came from it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3657.691,"endTime":3662.791,"body":"Um, because it, it is such afascinating kind of discussion"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3662.791,"endTime":3667.321,"body":"also about personalities, uh, aboutdiscoveries that have come after it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3667.801,"endTime":3673.059,"body":"Of course, uh, the, the name Fritz Haberis a very, Important figure here, but"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3673.059,"endTime":3676.779,"body":"it's very important to also see what'skind of the, the person behind that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3677.469,"endTime":3681.969,"body":"'cause Fritz Haber was,well, a very colored person."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3682.419,"endTime":3687.969,"body":"Uh, if, if I read up on him, probably notthe nicest person in the world, maybe I"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3687.969,"endTime":3693.579,"body":"would slightly qualify him in some littlebit narcissistic, uh, personality traits."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3693.579,"endTime":3695.559,"body":"If, if, if I read up on in."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3695.897,"endTime":3699.257,"body":"but, but what basically happened is thata lot of people worked on ammonia and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3699.257,"endTime":3705.047,"body":"other nitrogen fixation technologies,and many people couldn't make it work."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3705.047,"endTime":3708.257,"body":"And also what happened is thatpeople worked on this, and this"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3708.257,"endTime":3712.217,"body":"was high pressure, hydrogenand, and nitrogen and incidents"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3712.217,"endTime":3714.227,"body":"happened in, in some laboratories."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3714.947,"endTime":3718.937,"body":"So people stopped actually around,some people around 1900, they"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3718.937,"endTime":3722.297,"body":"stopped working on ammonia becausethey had a lab technician dying."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3722.586,"endTime":3724.626,"body":"in some cases it went a bit better."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3724.626,"endTime":3726.276,"body":"And, and, and Haber got this."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3726.906,"endTime":3731.616,"body":"Got this data on, um, on the thermodynamics, on the performance."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3731.856,"endTime":3733.746,"body":"And he said, well, this is going to work."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3734.646,"endTime":3738.106,"body":"But then he came together to the,to the, uh, meeting of the Bunsen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3738.126,"endTime":3741.786,"body":"Society, where basically therewas a lot of prominent chemical"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3741.786,"endTime":3743.766,"body":"engineers, chemists coming together."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3743.933,"endTime":3746.416,"body":"and they, they made fun ofhim because they didn't have"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3746.416,"endTime":3747.796,"body":"the data that was so good."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3748.216,"endTime":3749.836,"body":"So they, they, they made fun of him."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3749.836,"endTime":3754.458,"body":"And, and, and then, his ego wasvery, very much, trampled on."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3754.458,"endTime":3757.458,"body":"And then he was like, okay, Ihave to prove these people wrong."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3757.878,"endTime":3762.598,"body":"So then he went with his, uh, engineerRobert Le Rossignol, who was really,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3762.938,"endTime":3765.168,"body":"uh, the person making the setup."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3766.008,"endTime":3770.448,"body":"Um, so, so the, the, the temperatureof the setup again, and then he had"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3770.448,"endTime":3775.232,"body":"his Japanese, uh, person called, uh,Tamaru, who was very good at measuring."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3775.615,"endTime":3777.565,"body":"and, and they, he cameback with the numbers."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3777.565,"endTime":3780.565,"body":"And then that's kind of howthis, how this all spinned out."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3781.765,"endTime":3787.102,"body":"Interesting story there that Tamaruactually founded then Tokyo Tech in Japan."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3787.415,"endTime":3790.781,"body":"And that's still like a location,a university where a lot of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3790.781,"endTime":3794.591,"body":"the ammonia research in recentdecades also has taken place."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3794.591,"endTime":3799.561,"body":"So there are still a heritage flowingfrom, from the Haber, uh, process in,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3799.561,"endTime":3802.051,"body":"into the global, uh, ammonia, landscape."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3802.051,"endTime":3805.501,"body":"And to give an example from thesame group, there was this professor"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3805.651,"endTime":3810.348,"body":"Keni and he was very instrumentalin routine based catalysts."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3810.618,"endTime":3814.578,"body":"And he has also been very instrumentalin the Japanese program to actually get"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3814.578,"endTime":3819.258,"body":"ammonia on the agenda, uh, for what, forthe demonstration that we have today."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3819.258,"endTime":3822.124,"body":"So he was very like,that's all very related."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3822.124,"endTime":3823.804,"body":"So that, that's, that's very interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3824.254,"endTime":3825.974,"body":"And then if you go from, from Haber."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3827.036,"endTime":3829.756,"body":"Then you also had the material challenges."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3829.756,"endTime":3833.956,"body":"Like they never had such a highpressure system in the world,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3833.956,"endTime":3836.176,"body":"so they had to design that."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3836.176,"endTime":3839.896,"body":"So the team of Bosch, uh, at got to work."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3840.076,"endTime":3842.416,"body":"He got also the nobleprize for, for that work."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3842.641,"endTime":3845.657,"body":"they drilled a bit of holes in the,in the converters to make sure some of"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3845.657,"endTime":3849.887,"body":"the hydrogen would flow out just to, tonot have the, have the reactor blow up"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3849.902,"endTime":3851.897,"body":"or, or have some other cracks in there."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3852.317,"endTime":3854.207,"body":"Uh, then they have to make the catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3854.387,"endTime":3858.707,"body":"So Fritz Haber says, okay, we, wetried, Osmium was an amazing catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3859.025,"endTime":3862.984,"body":"and they had no clue about howcatalysts fundamentally work."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3863.334,"endTime":3866.744,"body":"So, uh Fritz Haber, for example, hecame up with, well, we have to use"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3866.777,"endTime":3871.907,"body":"uranium because osmium is heavy element,so uranium must be a great catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3872.177,"endTime":3874.007,"body":"There was kind of the,the knowledge there."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3874.547,"endTime":3877.154,"body":"And then the laboratory ads BASF."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3877.284,"endTime":3881.247,"body":"So that is the, Alwin Mittaschand his people, they, they got"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3881.247,"endTime":3884.337,"body":"to work and it tested basicallythe entire periodic system"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3885.087,"endTime":3889.047,"body":"Kevin Hares: And he's often forgottenin all these, uh, discussions"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3889.047,"endTime":3891.127,"body":"that is like, uh, Haber and Bosch."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3891.147,"endTime":3894.537,"body":"But uh, in terms of thecatalyst, Alwin Mittasch actually"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3894.537,"endTime":3896.097,"body":"made great contributions."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3896.517,"endTime":3896.787,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: Yes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3896.937,"endTime":3901.167,"body":"So, so, so what happened is that,uh, initially, like Osmium was used"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3901.167,"endTime":3902.877,"body":"in these demonstrative, uh, harbor."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3903.057,"endTime":3907.077,"body":"So the first thing that Baaf did wasbuy up all the osmium reserves in the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3907.167,"endTime":3910.047,"body":"world, but that was like, almost nothing."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3910.356,"endTime":3913.712,"body":"and one quote from, from thelaboratories is that, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3913.922,"endTime":3915.362,"body":"there's some kind of explosion."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3915.362,"endTime":3919.74,"body":"And, and, and mid also said, well, thisis like, I don't believe it was mi by the"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3919.74,"endTime":3923.7,"body":"way, who said it, but like somebody inthe lab, they said like, oh my God, if"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3923.7,"endTime":3928.56,"body":"this, if this would've been osmium, thiswould've been the world world resource"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3928.56,"endTime":3930.06,"body":"of Osmium, that would've blown up."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3930.36,"endTime":3932.94,"body":"So just tried everything."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3933.375,"endTime":3936.915,"body":"And, and then they were a bit luckybecause they had this, uh, gli farra"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3937.075,"endTime":3940.935,"body":"magnetite from the north of Sweden,which is some kind of, or iron oxide."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3941.512,"endTime":3945.442,"body":"And it turned out to be quiteactive and they really didn't"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3945.442,"endTime":3947.572,"body":"know why, uh, back in the day."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3947.722,"endTime":3953.012,"body":"But in that, in that iron ore, actuallythere is some, uh, potassium content,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3953.012,"endTime":3957.152,"body":"and that acts as a promoter for thisbreaking the nitrogen, nitrogen bonds."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3957.482,"endTime":3961.362,"body":"And that made this such an active,catalyst where iron is the main"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3961.362,"endTime":3964.842,"body":"active, uh, surface, but thenyou also need these promoters."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3965.412,"endTime":3967.722,"body":"But back in the day, they didn'tknow it, but they were just lucky"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3967.722,"endTime":3971.502,"body":"that they put some random ironore and it, it was very active."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3972.402,"endTime":3976.272,"body":"The Germans then were very, youknow, very protective and, and"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3976.932,"endTime":3980.112,"body":"you know, they, they didn't wantto share any of this information"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3980.532,"endTime":3982.152,"body":"even after the first World War."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3982.292,"endTime":3987.139,"body":"so the people of course, knew they weremaking ammonia in Germany and other"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3987.139,"endTime":3988.759,"body":"countries were also developing this."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3989.359,"endTime":3994.579,"body":"But then the initial processes were verylousy in terms of catalyst performance."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3994.579,"endTime":3999.199,"body":"So they, they kind of had this ironcatalyst that were like, maybe refactor 10"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":3999.199,"endTime":4001.249,"body":"less active than the, the BASF catalyst."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4001.259,"endTime":4004.102,"body":"So they had to, eventuallythey, they, they found out"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4004.192,"endTime":4005.602,"body":"what was the key ingredient."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4005.632,"endTime":4005.992,"body":"But,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4006.338,"endTime":4010.238,"body":"um, but, but you really see thattechnology development and it took all"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4010.238,"endTime":4014.708,"body":"the way to the seventies and eightieswith, with the work of Ertel and,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4014.708,"endTime":4019.688,"body":"and other people, uh, that we reallyunderstand the, the mechanism of ammonia"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4019.688,"endTime":4022.448,"body":"synthesis and also the roles of promoter."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4022.748,"endTime":4025.658,"body":"And then he also got the, a NobelPrize for that in the two thousands."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4025.658,"endTime":4031.568,"body":"So you see that there's kind of a decade,uh, century, uh, of, of developments that,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4031.568,"endTime":4033.908,"body":"that were needed to, to, to make this"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4033.908,"endTime":4034.298,"body":"happen."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4034.958,"endTime":4039.468,"body":"So it, it has to be, it has be theHaber process that is the favored, uh,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4039.483,"endTime":4040.233,"body":"Kevin Hares: Yeah, definitely."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4040.233,"endTime":4044.343,"body":"It's also my favorite discovery,and it's still amazing."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4044.343,"endTime":4051.813,"body":"Although it's hundreds, uh, of yearsold, it's still continues to be improved."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4051.813,"endTime":4055.563,"body":"And, uh, with all these new challengesthat we also discussed today with the,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4055.607,"endTime":4060.947,"body":"flexible ammonia production, for example,and low emission ammonia production, it"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4060.947,"endTime":4063.797,"body":"really stays a super interesting topic."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4064.296,"endTime":4066.936,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: and the one thingthat I would say is that, uh, of course"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4066.936,"endTime":4071.286,"body":"we talk about many of these things arevery new, but if you look back like a"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4071.286,"endTime":4076.326,"body":"hundred years ago, uh, you had basicallycoal gasification for your hydrogen"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4076.326,"endTime":4079.116,"body":"production and you had water electrolysis."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4079.476,"endTime":4085.806,"body":"So there's this, there's this book by byErnst from 1928, and it's a great book."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4085.806,"endTime":4090.606,"body":"It already describes basically theammonia synthesis from water electrolysis,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4090.606,"endTime":4094.326,"body":"and then the, the other, uh, flavorsyou'll have for nitrogen fixation."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4094.536,"endTime":4095.886,"body":"And then if you look back now."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4096.222,"endTime":4099.882,"body":"I mean, it's very, very similarkind of the, the options you have."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4099.882,"endTime":4103.602,"body":"Of course there is a lot of developments,but fundamentally it's very similar."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4103.602,"endTime":4103.932,"body":"Again,"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4104.007,"endTime":4104.337,"body":"Kevin Hares: Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4104.787,"endTime":4105.657,"body":"Super interesting."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4106.077,"endTime":4106.287,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4106.287,"endTime":4107.492,"body":"Thank you very much, Kevin for this."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4108.297,"endTime":4114.927,"body":"Insights into ammonia, uh, synthesis andutilization and, uh, all your knowledge."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4115.227,"endTime":4121.617,"body":"I will link also the book of yoursin the show notes and yeah, maybe"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4121.617,"endTime":4125.427,"body":"people get interested also in, inreading that from our discussion."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4125.637,"endTime":4126.447,"body":"Thank you very much."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4126.856,"endTime":4127.996,"body":"Kevin Rouwenhorst: thank you very much."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4127.996,"endTime":4128.326,"body":"Appreciate it."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4128.767,"endTime":4130.927,"body":"Kevin Hares: Also, thankyou very much for listening."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4131.467,"endTime":4137.377,"body":"If you got interested in ammonia andall the use cases of low emission"},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4137.377,"endTime":4140.997,"body":"ammonia, You can find a link toKevin's book in the show notes."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4141.425,"endTime":4146.405,"body":"and don't forget to follow, innovate, andreact on whatever app you are listening."},{"speaker":null,"startTime":4146.728,"endTime":4149.398,"body":"Until next time, keepinnovating and stay curious."}]}